While it may not be logical I would still prefer to have it exist even if it slowly collapses into a pile of iron oxide than have it not exist at all. Obviously that's hyperbole; at some point there's no point and the junk man can have it. But it would seem we are far from that point. It still looks like a GG1 to me.

How much would it cost to seal openings and slap a coat of black paint or maybe just primer over the whole thing to somewhat arrest further decay?

This field would benefit tremendously with the development, if it doesn't already exist and apparently it does not, of a tarp that doesn't need replacing every few months, is reasonably tolerant of the wind rubbing it across irregular surfaces, and (ideally) keeps out water yet in dry weather lets entrapped moisture evaporate through it.

Add to my pie in the sky request the ability to cut and install a weather resistant zipper into the tarp *after* it is in place so you can create access points. What a boon to preservation such a thing would be. One can dream.

Steve

Actually, we are addressing what I want to call the "Liberace syndrome" here.

The Liberace Museum in Las Vegas is "temporarily closed", likely never to re-open. Why? Because for as famous as the guy was during his lifetime, now that his fans are old and dropping like flies, in the cold, hard light of history, there wasn't very much of lasting significance there.

So it goes with GG1's, or about any other railroad artifact you can name. There are already at least two cosmetically restored, displayed indoors, that hopefully will be interpreted so that future generations will have some idea why they were significant. So, why do we need more than a dozen others? In another fifty years, there won't be anybody alive who saw them run. At that time, how do you explain why they are any more significant than the DD1, or the NYC S motor? Meanwhile, there will be another fifty years worth of pieces that truly are significant milestones in the development of railroad motive power; the SD-40 comes quickly to mind; whatever is deemed to be the first successful high HP AC diesel electric will deserve a place, and numerous other things that we can't even dream of, but that fans in the year 2061 will consider "must haves". Of course, to save those, some of this older junk will have to go to make room.

And eventually, a lot of what they save will have to go, also, to make room for the stuff that everyone feels in neat at the turn of the next century.

There is a reason why there is so little saved from the Roman Empire... there is only so much room in the world, and only so many resources that are going to be directed at saving obsolete stuff. Choose wisely.

Frankly, many of the comments/solutions have merit:

We have to get this stuff under a roof, we have to establish relevancy for this old railroad stuff (anyone happen to give any thought to the changing demographics of American society??), we have to do a FAR better job of interpreting and displaying and most importantly, funding...what we already have.

Some places have done better jobs of this than others; at least in certain portions of what I mention above. 12,000 feet-plus of track under cover at IRM is laudable (and worthy of envy and emulation). Penna Trolley Museum's getting EVERYTHING under cover, including the "chicken coops" is another milestone.

But, ultimately, someone needs to care about this stuff. Many someones, in fact. And dare I say, that a PRR GG1 has much more relevance in Harrisburg or Strasburg (or Baltimore, frankly) than in Roanoke or Syracuse or Dallas.

In the meantime, many of us will be making agonizing choices and fighting holding actions. Progress (in funding, creating relevance, making better displays, getting cover over the stuff) will be made by some of us, slowly but surely. Putting heads in sand and blindly saying "don't scrap anything!" is wildly unrealistic. Time, weather, size and rigging costs will make those decisions anyway.

Howard P.

Howard, Regarding the GG1 in Roanoke, I can probably broker you a good deal if you're interested......... As for moving it, you're on your own.........:)

Gee, thanks Gary!!! Just what we need!

Actually, they did operate in Connecticut for about 12 years. And, we did decide to not go after one when Amtrak was making them available 30 years ago--- because there were/would be enough preserved in other places!

Gary mentions another extremely important point that some others have alluded to: very little of this stuff will now be moved on own wheels. Even something as "normal" as a roller-bearing-equipped diesel is now subject to needing alignment control couplers in order to move on the "Big Four" class one railroads.

Howard P.

no, 2000 cars must not die, and note say like the North Shore which had a large fleet, you will have to make a decision on the saveable and must scrap.

But when you go further into rarer cars and equipment you have to make a harder preservation decision, say the noted GG1, its body shell may have rusty holes, but thats more cosmetic and repairable, but if the frame and motors are in bad shape, it may be a scrap-salvage what you can to save another GG1 if more exist.

NKP 765 had plenty of rust for 13 years of sitting and time and attention brought the engine back to operation, so never say never, otherwise the engine would still be sitting, even as a more rusted hulk.

The N&W 4-8-0's recently rescued sat for over 50 years almost or further than their operating lives, and yet given time and attention you could restore any of them to operation, thats why I cannot say that GG1 is a dead horse, there are always possibilities. Only a matter how industrious YOU are, so all the valuation or "de-valuation" of the "you must scrap" has no basis to me.

The thread reminds me of the logic in scrapping some very important rail relics during the early days of World War 2, even though they were in preservation, to aid the war effort.

The historic merit of preserving the Baltimore GG1 far outweighs the need to cut it up. Some would have advocated scrapping Kanawha 2760, in Lynchburg, too, but it has been pulled back from total destruction along with the Virginian caboose behind it. The Southern coach was falling apart and little remained of it, but parts. The NKP "Mike" in Hammond, Indiana, is in a bad way, in a poor display location, but it exists and could be further rebuilt. Maine Central 470 is in tatters (literally), but inside a building, some replacement welding could make her look like she's a candidate for the "Pine Tree Limited". The list of irreplaceable rolling stock goes on.

I would restrict scrapping to those pieces for which preservation and rebuilding is beyond hope. The "Boontown" cars are an example.

But, sheesh! The list of park locomotives brought back to steam from certain death is a long one. I would hate to kill the patient just to be certain he look good at the funeral.

Academic discussion and as Howard said, valid points. However, the logic of some is flawed. Simply put, do we include every aspect of U.S. history in the standard high school textbook? Of course not. Historians regularly decide what is to be added, what stays, and what goes. More importantly, an effective history educator (which, by the way, is what we do) highlights trends through the use of a few appropriate examples. Do we all have our own personal interests? Of course. But for the sake of engagement and sustainability we need to focus our attention on the milestones. A good historical tale does not include every single detail, neither does a good railroad museum.

I'm with you, Mr. Glueck.

I read the following about Kanawha 2760 on a web site:
"The locomotive was prey to vandalism and scavengers for scrap metal over many years and had consequently deteriorated to an appalling state. However, in 2004 an elementary school teacher and the local Kiwanis Club started a 'Save the Train' campaign. They carried out cosmetic restoration over the following years and the locomotive is looking in much better shape than in some earlier photos I have seen."

Saved by some school kids and a Kiwanis club, yet some in the rail preservation community were prepared to scrap it? Clearly, some rail preservationists are not exploring all options.

The 2-8-4 was in a spot that did not require movement, the GG1 at B&O Museum is in a bad spot-- it has to move. Yes, funds were raised for the cosmetic restoration of 2760; I posit that some posters here would say that wasn't enough, because it wasn't an operational restoration.

What would happen if "someone" showed up at Pratt & Poppleton Streets in Bawlmer with a check for $750,000 restricted to cosmetic restoration of 4876 and indoor display of said G? Would that change the equation? Or simply muddy the waters of what the Museum is trying to accomplish, with other projects then being dumped out of the queue?

Nothing is beyond restoration/reconstruction. It may be beyond a group's/individual's capabilities to raise the money to do so and then keep the item from further harm.

So, how much is anyone willing to spend on 4876?

Howard P.

But for what purpose? To sit in a park? I'm glad it was a "teachable moment" for the community but honestly, is it being interpreted? Is it serving any educational purpose? Or is it that us as rail preservationist can sleep better at night? Where do we drawn the line with this?

All the discussion about GG1s got me thinking. One aspect of an artifact that can loom large in its case for continued preservation vs. the torch is whether it is operable or not.

Operable equipment is less prone to be the object of "We can do without it" purges.

Diesels and steamers in that case have a significant advantage over electric locos such as the GG1. They can be operable as self-contained devices. An electric loco the size of a GG1 needs a vast and incredibly expensive support structure in order to be operable. (This is true to a lesser degree with trolleys, but there the ability to provide a couple hundred amps worth of 600VDC is a whole different scenario than providing a big load of electrons hyped up to 11,500 VAC at 25 Hz.)

So every preserved GG1 is forever (barring some really bizzare developments) a static exhibit. So, do we still need close to 20 of them, when a few well preserved examples would suffice to illustrate the breed?

Thus the case for nicely presenting maybe a half dozen of them should take precedence over have about 15 more rusting away, with some of them in places where they have zero relevance?

Glad I don't have to decide this. I could make some enemies that way......

Since we are picking on GG-1's, it would be interesting to guage their interpretive value in the "wrong places" or their marketing value? Big Boy has marketing value to Steamtown, and always has, does a G in Texas, Wisconsin, Indiana or M(possibly) ichigan have similar value?

One might argue that to the average person, a G is more differentiated and easier to understand than trying to interpret the differences between a 4-4-0 vs a 4-6-0... and probably leaves a deeper lasting impression among a larger, broader collection (and no, I am not sayi g the EBT should get a G as a billboard)

rob

Depends on the interpretive mission - some museums, like St Louis, have no regional but a wide technological mission. Brave.......but what an interesting collection!

G motors could also be interpreting art as a Loewy example, or product design - compare it to the Electrolux vacuum cleaner, along with N&W 611.

Maybe we should see if the Guggenheim wants a GG1?

dave

> But for what purpose? To sit in a park? I'm glad it was a "teachable moment" for the community but honestly, is it being interpreted? Is it serving any educational purpose?

The only advocates for "teachable moments" are museum operators, who must justify the expenditure of funds as being within the mission of the organization. It meant something to the Kiwanis Club and some school children to keep that display extant in their community. That's the only requisite interpretation and educational purpose.

> Or is it that us as rail preservationist can sleep better at night?

Totally irrelevant.

> Where do we drawn the line with this?

Unless "we" are putting up the $$$ and doing the work, "we" are not entitled to draw the lines. Why do you feel a compulsion to draw any lines? If the GG1 is spared the liquid wrench, good for it. Most likely it will happen when an individual or group that is partial to the PRR takes it upon themselves to acquire and preserve it.