I've always thought the same thing. When I see things like $300,000 to do a cosmetic restoration on a locomotive I just cringe and think of how much good that money could do if better spent.

With a group of volunteers, a lot of long hours, and about $5,000 I'm fairly certain I can make even the most forlorn locomotive look presentable.

I totally agree with those last postings, having worked on locomotives in the UK for 20 years, and seen what the effects of bing housed next to the sea (literally) can do for sheet metal and underframes over a 30 year lifespan, its just time and relatively little cost to repair, and actually immensley satisfying too, get the paint donated, get the filler donated and maybe the metal too, seems like they are wantonly giving up on this GG1, I would love to help you Tom if we could move this beast to somewhere mutually acceptable, like Cheyenne !


Mike Pannell
the un rusty Car 57 project on a shoestring budget
The hopeless DSP&P car 56 project
The slightly less hopeless caboose 2516 project
Cheyenne

Is there a safe area where the museum would consider relocating her for a week-long (or longer) rehab session, assuming a crew of skilled volunteers could be marshaled and sufficient supplies supplied? The crew would have to include people to steam clean the interior, collect the fragments, cut out rotten metal and weld in replacement. Certainly such a crew would not be responsible to bring her up to display standards, but to stop the damage, seal the holes, and repaint.
Obviously, she couldn't go back where she is stored at the present.

To what end? Seriously--when you're done, what do you have?



You're dealing with a possible/alleged PCB hazard still..... something you can disregard if you're working in your backyard on your own item, but NOT if you're on Chesapeake Bay drainage on a "professional" museum site....



You do that in a one-week time frame, it's going to look like a sloppy patch job. And again: To what end? What do you have when you're done? Something that's STILL going to sit outside and rust. Not only doesn't it fit in the collection, there's no indoor space to spare to display her!



You know what? We've had someone supposedly with money/fundraising resources publicly offer to do this for the American Freedom Train #1 (a.k.a Reading 2101), and it still hasn't happened over two years or so later, even after supposed numerous phone calls and the promise of a paid, professional paint crew on a donor's tab. I've given up trying to even figure out whether the problem(s) is/are institutional, bureaucratic, financial, logistical, mechanical, philosophical, or simply bullheadedness.

The three most significant costs to restoring this unit are the lead paint, the PCBs and the asbestos. Removal of these materials in the current safe and proper manner will eat money extremely quickly before anybody gets to weld a patch or put on more than a coat of stopgap paint.

Like everything it depends.......how many times do I need to say that?

Projects done with granted funds often come with strings attached about just how the job can be done, what defines a qualified bidder, etc. Bond, insurance, overhead associated with paperwork, transportation, lodging, subcontracting - it all adds up and it does it pretty fast.

Few professionally operated private museums and probably no public sector museums will permit unknown quantity volunteers to just show up and start working on their personal flavor of the day. I recall a lot of talk in threads past about projects started and abandoned in the disassembled junkyard stage because of this informality. Liability isssues, or even the potential idea that there could under some sort of circumstances be onbe tyou are not already accustomed to dealing with? Any good lawyer can find a million ways to rationalize avoiding amateur accessability in a professional setting.

So, yes, you can accomplish great things by substituting other resources for money, and by doing it out of your own pocket in your own place with your own plan and your own support group. That doesn't mean that it will be possible in every place and under every set of circumstances. Understand that is reality and accept it when you find it and move along to try something else somewhere else that you can do.

Hiring well paid honest professional people do do their jobs properly isn't dishonest or shameful. Get over the idea that unpaid activities are pure and professionally compensated activities are somehow tainted. Would you want a well meaning medical foamer operating on you? Your 12 year old nephew that likes math to do your taxes? Failing to understand the value of good qualified professional involvement and to procure it when you need it will do more to keep you at an amateur level than anything else.

Of course, then you won't have that feeling of self righteous martyrdom when your project dies unfinished while the museum that did the better job of getting grants and hiring people to do the job right and right now finishes their's - after all, life is just so unfair!!!!!!!!!!!

dave

In 1998 I did a cosmetic job on 4882 in Elkhart, IN. It was a down and dirty job to improve the way it looked as it was sitting in full view of the city parks department offices. The job was done for a total of $56.00 and in 50 hours. The idea was to buy some time and draw some positive publicity to the museum. I used what ever materials that were on hand. The rust was broke away hammers, a needle scale gun then the edges were ground to bare metal. No sheet metal was available to weld on over the holes so they were taped over with masking tape and bondo was used to fill fill over that.

The Penn Central lettering was visible through the black NJT paint and was painted white and then back mask. A local paint dealer had 30 gallons of black enamel in 5 gallon buckets they were unable to sell and donated them to the cause. The entire locomotive was sprayed black using a high volume sprayer.

The cab and door side windows are plexiglass and are held in by pot-metal inter frames that are screwed on. (those break easy) The windows were the only thing that had to be bought.

On October 29, 1998 there was a press conference held at the museum 15 years to the day after 4882 made it's last revenue run. Just as 15 years before the air was filled with the smell of paint drying next to the locomotive. (it was last repainted the night before the last revenue trips) That day will be more remembered however as the day John Glenn went into space the second time.

In the years since 4882 has once again had new rust holes appear and the paint is faded. The bondo patches have continued to hold. The rust that is breaking out on all the GG1s outside and uncared for is he same on all of them. I learned this from talking with other directors and curators of other museums with GG1s.

As far as 4876 I doubt that it can be done for $56.00 but it could defiantly be made to look better on a limited budget and limited volunteer labor. With out it being in a controlled environment the extensive prep work will be in vain. The 4882 looked presentable for 10 years on the down and dirty job.

As for the cab, the GG1 cabs are not visitor friendly places. they are small and were built using materials that visitors should not be around. With 4876 there is really no reason to invest money on the cab at this time but steps should be taken to secure it for various reasons.

What I am trying to say is that it is the possibility to make a GG1 look good without truckloads of money. That may keep others from complaining about an eyesore and buy time till a more permanent solution can be found.

Folks,

I find it amazing that we have had 52 posts and over 2000 views on a possible solution to "save" a piece of property we do not own and for which the current owner may or not have plans for further action.

I've been party to a few "broom jobs" such as suggested here and can say from experience the work quickly became much more involved than a few weekends and a trunkload of materials. This was in the days before "abatement" became an issue in managing a relic like a GG-1 or even a PCC.

Can we call the question and move along?

Wesley

Move along to what? Who is harmed if we discuss this issue until all have said their peace?

I have a distaste for people who act as if they are the ultimate arbiters of when an issue has been discussed "enough". Look at this and all other forums. All threads dies. There is no thread here that has been alive for years on end. At some point all that is said is said, no new posts are made and the thread slowly subsides into the deep. Let nature take its course.

Actually by posting that we should quit posting has brought the thread back to the top again, buoying it and inviting more discussion.

But since you brought the thread to the surface again...

In my career I have been a part of many broom jobs on historic iron. The only real difference between a weekend broom job and a professionally done paint job, preservation wise is the time interval between completion and when it has to happen again. Remember that 4877 once had a very well done professional paint job. It ultimately failed and has been renewed. In either case it is part of an ongoing process.

I disagree that pcbs, asbestos and lead paint has to be abated before the first patch is applied to the 4876. Stay out of the cab, don't disturb the asbestos and brush blast any suspected lead paint with Blastox and you will be good to go. Blastox is a sandblasting additive that converts lead into an inert material. The spent blasting agent is considered nonhazardous. Its really not that hard to obtain the equipment to be able to do spot blasting of repair areas. A small gas powered compressor, or electric compressor if there is juice, a $200 Harbor Freight pressure pot and some bags of Blastox are all that is needed to get the job done and remain in compliance. It is also easier and quicker than other prep methods.

ADM has some big time chip on his shoulder regarding the 4876 and I am afraid that it clouds his judgement. He is unwilling to even explore other options for this locomotive, shooting down any alternatives other than cutting her up where she sits. Even conservation actions designed to limit decay while alternatives are found are unacceptable. I suppose if a locomotive as historic as this can be rationalized out of existence then no historic piece of equipment is really safe. 4876 has an incredible story to tell and deserves more consideration than she is being given. Obviously the 4876 is important to the B&O Museum or she would have been deaccessioned by now.

"Mr. Sunshine, 4th" does seem to be less inclined toward what might be done over a final action, intended to close the issue. Honestly, I think dealing in thousands of dollars to slow or control the decay of a locomotive such as this one, is not required. We're not talking an operational rebuild, we're talking about making her less likely to be further used as a toilet, druggie-haven, and eyesore. If she was sealed, secured, patched and painted black, the locomotive might even attract a sponsor. Looking as she does, it's difficult to see her potential.

Does any member on this board have a contact that will pose the question to the Museum regarding access to the unit and the feeling regarding a stabilization "project"

I agree that the cost does to stabilize and paint is not excessive if done on with all volunteer effort via the RPN / PRR tech / anybody who wants in on the effort.

The biggest bridge to cross is "can a group of volunteers have access to the unit" after that then see where it goes

I think some of you are confusing "inability to ship the damned thing elsewhere" with "a passionate desire to preserve and present this thing".

I don't have a "chip on my shoulder" about this locomotive. I instead have a hardened cynicism begat from personal experience with other GG1 projects, the B&O Museum, and the obstacles erected by CSX. The pertinent "facts" remain the same, although any of them COULD change over time:
*4876 won't go on display at WUT unless all passenger traffic use of it ceases;
*CSX seems unwilling to let this thing be shipped out on its wheels at anything but exorbitant high-price freight rates, or on a flat car, if that;
*The B&O Museum has already in 1994 declared a GG1 they owned as surplus, and has deaccessioned other non-B&O-"family" equipment, and apparently accepted this particular GG1 reluctantly and "temporarily";
*Seemingly no one else has stepped forward willing or offering to take this GG1 off their hands and relocate it in any fashion--or at least no one with realistic plans, money or resources;
*Slapping a "quickie" paint job on this thing while it is not on public display only "kicks the can down the track" unless there is a firm commitment to preserving THIS GG1 for display somewhere in the future;
*The B&O Museum has multiple one-of-a-kind pieces that warrant a much higher priority for stabilization and restoration than this GG1: AFT 1, C&O streamlined Hudson 490, the C&O Mallets, B&O 5300 and 4500, several B&O and C&O passenger cars, and more.

Now, if you can convince the B&O Museum that 4876 should be a priority for them--or report back that they say they have it in the queue for a stabilization or restoration just as soon as the shop space or money is available--then I'll be right on down with a check and/or my jumpsuit ready to dive in. Trust me, my "negativity" is not a desire to see it scrapped, but a resignation to the current reality, COMBINED WITH an attempt to refocus this discussion towards a plan or proposal that stands a chance of actually working, a chance of being taken seriously by the current 4876 custodians, and a chance to succeed once started.

I just love this forum, you get one really upbeat positive go ahead comment (Richard Glueck) about actually doing something with this poor locomotive, and the poor poster gets torn apart by the negative 'marvin the robot' (hitchhikers guide to the galaxy) comments of despair and gloom and almost derision.
Its a wonder anyone who restores anything bothers with this forum.
If something does come of this i will be one of the first to send $50 to the spruce up fund, so go ahead Richard and the like lets prove the doomsdayers wrong.

Mike Pannell

Mike, thank you, and I do think one has to be willing to look forward to possibilities in a variety of manners. Don't get me wrong and think it's all gonna work out fine if you simply grin hard enough. For examples, the Florida 0-6-0 and cars; I'd have scrapped the cars for parts to keep the locomotive. ADM #4 is smart to inject reality into any discussion, as there are obstacles to overcome. The biggest obstacle at this time is inertia on the part of the B&O Museum, to whom the locomotive has been entrusted, and who hold the first of the "aces". A great number of cards need to be played to finish a "winning hand", and my suggestion is simply that the first move is not to "fold". I my teaching career, the biggest lesson I learned was, "the worst thing they can do is say 'No'". So you ask.
A great number of restorations have occurred on locomotives in worse shape, others have fallen to the wayside, such as my first crusade, Maine Central #470. Taking that into account, there is no reason to quit as one's first move. If this particular, historic, GG-1 gets cut up, it will be because she was deteriorated to the point of no return, or because nobody with the courage and means to address her stepped forward. I live on retirement in Maine, so while I can afford the luxury of planning and making suggestions, and possibly to show up for a week of labor, others who live in the region must take the bull by the tail and face the situation.