If I had a million bucks, I'd buy those F-units and give them the respect they deserve.

Update:

And I would give them the respect they deserve by finding a suitable home for them and foot the bill to rehab them if I had a million bucks.

Maybe the SP&S unit would be a good mate for SP&S 700 out in Portland? Maybe the SP unit would be a good fit for a California museum? The pessimistic outlooks are easy to come by, yes, but so are the optimistic ones if you ask me.

No, we can't save everything and spreading resources too thin endangers more than it helps. BUT, have we not reached the point where no more F's, E's, or steam should go to junk?

Look at those F's down in TX or wherever it was recently. A bit of water damage and simply because some others could be purchased more cheaply than those being repaired meant scrapping? Yes, in some cases rusting away in the back corner of a museum IS better than nothing at all. Because there is always SOMEDAY. Once they are gone they are gone forever.

Steve

This would be a good experiment in Crowd Funding......Something I've given a lot of though to when it comes to railway preservation. I've seen it work for the most outrageous things (like getting someones car fixed), and have been hoping someone would apply it to railway preservation at some point. It hold potential.

Has anyone heard of any plans for these locomotives? Last I heard (if I understood it) was that they were moved to the owner’s property in Stillwater, so the need to sell them in order to get them off city property was ended. I wonder if the owner is trying to sell the engines at this time.

What happed to the passenger cars? I recall that they were required to be sold in order to get them off rented property. Were they sold?

If the locomotives are secure on the owner’s property, I would not assume that they will be scrapped.

Ron--

All six of the lightweight cars were sold to Iowa Pacific and shipped to their car shops in Colorado. Two domes (one ex-SP, the second ex-MP), three coaches (all ex-C&O)*, and a baggage car.

*RR Picture Archives lists two of the three coaches as ex-NKP, not ex-C&O, but if the two cars in question are of Nickel Plate heritage, then said cars were built to the same P-S Plan as the P-S built C&O coaches--the small windows at the center of Plan #7600/#7600A coaches are a giveaway. See the "Pass. Cars in Amherst Ohio" thread for more info regarding P-S built C&O/NKP coaches: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35969

Source:

1. Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

Very true.



I would. If he can't get them out of where they are, and owes money to someone, scrapping is his quickest cash source. It sounds like he doesn't want to scrap them, but he also won't sell cheap. I'm still hoping someone will answer my questions about their condition, as it seems everyone else is ringing their hands with this, and I might have someone who might be convinced he wants a few F-units for his railroad. Admittedly, it wouldn't be a museum, but it keeps them on live rail and operable until someone can put them in a museum.



I've read through the thread, admittedly, it doesn't look positive, but I don't see condition spelled out anywhere.

Maybe I missed it.... The first question that needs answered, I believe is "Do the units still existing or are they bite size pieces in a ship's hold bound for China by now..?

T Wilson

I would make the case that the "rail preservation community" is already saving "everything it can"--and certainly a couple more pieces beyond that, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We just seem to differ on exactly how widespread, rich, and/or capable this "community" is. I base my opinion on over three decades of work with said community, scraping the rust and knuckles, sniffing the paint fumes and coal smoke, etc.

There's also the issue of whether old rail equipment acquired for commercial or entertainment purposes are actually "preserved." I certainly don't consider the rebuilt/repurposed Alco cab units at the Grand Canyon RR, nor their former SP coaches, nor Strasburg's "restored" wooden cars, nor cabooses or passenger cars refitted into station restaurants, as "preserved" in the true sense of the word. (Many lists of extant vintage equipment use the generic term "Survivors," acknowledging this fact indirectly.)

The internet era has certainly expanded the extraordinary popular delusion of telling other people what to do with their monies, or in political arenas pontificating on how to spend other people's money with or without their consent.

When I say I would not assume the engines will be scrapped, that is all I meant. I would not assume they won’t be scrapped either. They may very well be scrapped if the owner can’t move them out or owes money and is looking for quick cash. But why assume that those circumstances prevail?

When this issue began, the locomotives were on city property, and the city was demanding their removal in a very short time. The owner did not feel that the time frame was sufficient to sell the engines, so he said he might have to scrap them. He said that he preferred to sell the engines rather than scrapping them. At that point, it looked like scrapping was a very high probability.

Then the city defused the crisis by moving the engines to the owner’s property and charging him for the expense by putting the bill on his property tax. Since the owner’s last announced preference was to sell the engines rather than scrapping them; and since the crisis with the city that threatened scrapping is over; why conclude that scrapping is nearly inevitable?

What is needed is an update on the owner’s intentions for the locomotives.

I spoke to the owner when he was selling them. He was very interested in selling them rather than scrapping.... He was looking to get about $50K minimum for each one.
However, the scrap value of one of these is somewhere around $25K, maybe $30K, depending entirely on the going price of scrap steel at the time of scrapping....
They need, at minimum, 4 wheel sets each. Then there's issues with couplers for interchange, possible grab iron repairs....I'm not sure that CSX would accept them with their non rotating end cap bearings, They have had vandals (at that time) trying to steal electrical wiring ( not sure of the extent of damage)... not to mention the rumors of "creative" changes to relays and wiring while in service.

Now, for those out there who say its a lost cause......I have two words for you......Flagg Coal 75. Ok, it's two words and a number.....
John and Barney are not the most "wealthy" people out there, but with alot of hard work, a good vision of what they wanted and a pile of their own money, over a few years....They have a quite successful operation that, as far as I know, no one has done before.
My point being....You can make great things happen with a positive attitude, a plan and a willingness to work hard for little return. money just helps and makes things go faster.
People often give up.....for many reasons, some of them quite logical. All too often people give up when they have almost won.
If your dream is to own these locomotives and restore them, all I'll say is great! don't ever give up.....but do be prepared for reality.
Remember most things that are preserved, be it trains, planes, ships, cars or anything else....are preserved due to the actions of one person or a small core group of people.

eze240,

You make some excellent points; however, I think you are comparing apples and baseballs.

The Gramling family is not trying to restore and move 125-ton locomotives. Steam locomotives, especially the 75 and 126 and similar engines, are very simple machines and can be maintained and restored with relatively simple tools. I've operated both 126 and 75, helped repair a breakdown out on the road of 75 with just the stuff at hand, and have visited the "loco works" in Ashley, Ind. I doubt John and Barney would attempt to mess with a land-locked beat-up F7 in need of lots of TLC and a good rigger. Too big for Dave Tunison's trailer, I think.

The value of those Fs is what someone will pay for them. The owner may think they are worth 50-75-100K or more--- does not matter. Only when a check is written and cashed will the value be set. And if the situation is such that a "clock is ticking" and they have to be moved, and they continue to be vandalized where they sit, the value only declines. Need four wheelsets each unit so they can move? Wow, that's gonna cost some coin.

Yes, harsh realities here. But it is the reality. You can't save everything, and you have to know when to stop banging your head against the wall and walk away.

Or, you decide there is no limit to what amount you'll spend to save/move/restore something. If it's your money, or you can successfully persuade enough other people to part with enough bucks, then my hat's off to you. That's been done before, it is possible. But not easy.

Howard P.
Soapbox, NY

Wouldn't this be a good time to locate that mysterious warehouse in New Jersey? The one that holds all the GG1's, the Pennsy T1, and the missing B&O EM-1?

Just sayin'....


In New Hampshire, there are two B&M F7A carbodies. One, in Gorham, is being turned into a museum theatre for the local railroad museum. A good use, since the steel is not road worthy any longer. At Conway Scenic, the other gutted F7A is being rebuilt with innards from a derelict GP9.

There is a solution to almost every problem, but it requires cooperation and vision from all parties.

Both Howard and Richard make good points. Value is determined by a willing buyer, not the seller. Sometimes, a dose of cold, hard reality is what is needed to ground a seller's expectations.




I passed through Soapbox, NY once.

Howard,
I understand your point and I know quite well what the costs are, as I've spent 10 years running trains and fixing them on various short lines and tourist operations.
I don't quite see how my point is comparing apples and baseballs..... nor have I intended to suggest the Gramlings would take on such a job.... And I did say to be prepared for the reality of this and any other situation.
The complexity of the equipment is of little consequence to this discussion....Granted, diesels are more complex, but I have seen shortlines operate with less work on a regular basis than that tank engine. That would include changing traction motors and power assemblys,etc....in some very poor conditions.
So, the point here is:.....The Gramlings chose their project, had a vision of what they wanted, made a plan.... and were willing to do what was needed to achieve that dream/goal. Even though the nay sayers have said things like "why bother getting a little engine" or simply " you'll never make that work".
They are only an example, in our discussion, of people having the motivation and desire to succeed in a situation where, the project could have ended up rusting away in his backyard or, worse, scrapped, had they given up because it was too hard.
I'm trying to give some encouragement, not beat the guy down about how hard it will be. It's not MY choice, its the choice of the person with the dream or goal....weather to proceed or give up, how much to spend or how long is too long or how hard is too hard.
I'm not suggesting that everything can be saved, or should be... just that anything can be... if you are willing to try and willing to follow thru with the work and the cost needed to make it happen.

I'm not worried about interchange ability, most of the move over live rail could be on shortlines or sympathetic regionals, as long as the coupler shank is serviceable, alignment control isn't a necessity and knuckles are easily swapped. Wheels are harder to fix, but do-able (I think the company I'm thinking of has spares on hand). Grab Irons are easy to repair or replace. Wiring wouldn't be a terrible fix if it's not too bad, wiring was fairly straightforward on those old F7s. Prime movers? Generators? Traction motors? Structural?

I'm guessing based on this thread that the FRA would not allow these to be used as is even with new wheels, but I need a pretty good idea of overall condition.