Her is a wrapper sheet being drilled in a CNC drilling machine. The stretch-out and hole pattern were modeled in Solidworks then transfered to the drilling machine. Solidworks can account for the hole distortion during forming and make minor adjustments as needed to keep the holes in the right location. The drilling machine also countersunk the holes. This process makes welding the root pass (in this case using the GTAW or "TIG" process) a very consistant activity as the welder is not having to compensate for jagged or eccentric holes and bevels.

I recall Linn referring to 60K carbon steel as "rubber metal" during a presentation at a TRAIN conference many years ago.....it made an impression. Gary also was looking at FormAll alloy as a possible stay material (the stuff extruded and formed into such things as appliance feet.)

OK, so things need to have some degree if flexibility to avoid failure through repetitive stress cycles, but in the process we need to be careful not to simply transfer that stress point to another part of the boiler. If the firebox was installed with nothing but flexible stays everywhere, the mud ring would still be a rigid connection as would the door hole, and the tubes and braces, not to mention the additional movement borne by such things as arch tubes and syphons.

Perhaps our ancestors chose to make stays the sacrificial element since they were more easily replaced than other members of the assembly? Not to imply that there's nothing to be discovered that might not make any situation better.

dave

There are a few things that ESC can be very proud of. One, at the insistence of Linn M, a margin of safety for railroad boilers has been maintained at 4:1. Additionally, in the railroad world, stress values on stay bolts was maintained at 7,500 psi, even though the rest of the industry has moved to 10,000 psi. In fact, for that matter, the rest of the industry has moved to lower margins of safety as well. So, in short terms, when you lower the margin of safety and when you increase the stress value on stay bolts, you will inherently see problems.

Having spent some intimate time with the Tornado this year, my following comment comes from first hand experience and detailed discussions with those "in the know."

Linn, in short terms; There are two areas of this boiler where the standards that you or I would employ in building a boiler to "railroad" standards, even by the ASME code, that were not applied to the Tornado boiler. Take into account also that they have a lower margin of safety and they allow a much higher stress on stay bolts. Finally, they do not account for stresses in corners in and out of tangent plate the way we do. These issues have NOT been the primary cause of the previous boiler issues and I am NOT saying that this issue is the cause of the current stay bolt issue. I do however side with the poster who commented that 2 stay bolts in 10,000km is a great track record. The engineering team overseeing the Tornado is considering applying a few USA tricks to help "mitigate" the possibility of future problems. However, even from an engineering stand point, even though "we" in the USA would not have done a few of the things that were done by England and German codes to this boiler, it does not mean that what was done was wrong. We will be publishing a video of my most recent trip and experiences with the Tornado and various England based boiler builders. Our video production gal just delivered a healthy baby boy and our thoughts and prayers remain with her and her family at this time.

My relationship with Mr. Austin;

Relationships are the most valuable thing that I have. As a company culture I have taught my team of over 40 employees that relationships mean more to us than money. Unfortunately, Mr. Austin and I have a bitter disdain for each other. Our poor relationship stems from a terrible experience Matt and I had with each other in Wyoming. Be that as it may; when-ever the topic comes up (Fillet welded stay bolts), Matt makes it a point to do the following:

Deface Wasatch at any cost

Deface Matt Janssen and his great work at any cost

Deface anything that has to do with a technology that Matt (Austin) simply can not understand.

Point out that Matt Austin indeed has a piece of paper hanging on his office wall called a degree: My degrees, of which I have two, are folded up and stored while I spend the bulk of my time actively engaged in restoration projects on the main land. For the fifth time on RYPN, I have two degrees....you can go look them up.

Of other interesting note, Mr. Austin enjoys posting Matt Janssen's papers, as well as the Tross papers. However, I find it interesting that Matt Austin works so hard to make sure that he posts MY projects, OUR papers, criticize us for our supposed lack of "DEGREES"......however, it should be noted;

Never once have we seen a project finished by Matt Austin. Additionally, though we have presented a number of valuable papers on a variety of topics, we have never once.....not once, have we seen a paper published by Matt Austin. Additionally, the FEA spoken of by Matt Austin......never seen it.

Mr. Austin, you have defaced my company enough, you have spoken of the Tross papers too often. For heavens sake, Mr. Austin, turn the tables:

POST your OWN Projects......POST your own PAPERS, Show us YOUR FEA on this subject but for heavens sake......stop picking on the rest of us!!!!!!!! It is agonizing and tiresome.

For those of you counting words.....I know it is too many. Mr. Austin and I do not agree. We never have, we never will. It is a flaming war that I doubt will end soon. I digress and I will depart from the discussion. It has become yet another great waste of time with only one intention.......deface fillet welded stay bolts, Wasatch and anybody who agrees with the concept!

Matt....show us how smart you really are.....post us something that you have written and show us some work you have completed and make it all relevant to your hatred of Fillet welded stay bolts.

Those that can, do
Those that won't, inspect
Those that can't, criticize

Mr. Rimmasch,

Unless Mr. Austin is carving his initials in your forehead with a pen knife, I doubt he is defacing you.

I think you mean defame.

And now we're into personalities instead of technology. Another potentially good exchange of real information lost.

Hope ESC will publish what they learn as they continue to explore this and other topics, otherwise those of us who aren't members will never find out....

dave

John,

I would like to point out that the issue Matt brought up was a dealing with quality/Design issues with Meiningen boilers. In light of some of the issues with the Tornado boiler since it was built and 3801, that is a pretty legitimate topic of discussion.

It went off track when you jumped in. As another responder pointed out to you there was no mention of Fillet welded staybolts and certainly none about WRC before you brought them up.

As Dave said, another learning opportunity lost.

Planeman

Not lost at all. Just taking a shoo-fly.

Stepping back in (at my peril, I think) it seems to me that this discussion is pretty useless unless there is input from an engineer at either Meiningen or the Tornado group who would be willing to talk about the specifics of the issue. And there is no certainty that this would help in such a polarized environment. The Europeans are actually building boilers for mainline service, apparently using current theory and technology. We here in the USA may be too much in love with our 1940's technology to be willing to entertain a technological leap of 50 years. Suffice to say that we know that there are significant differences in the design philosophy between European and American practice. Unless someone from the European side of the argument is willing to step in, there is no sense in going further. This is all heat and no light.

Please read the topic at the top of this forum entitle 'Rant'. We absolutely REQUIRE civility here, and I gently and politely request that you maintain decorum in these discussions. You are collectively free to dislike anyone you choose (including me), nay, you may loathe whom you please, but KEEP IT OUT OF PUBLIC. IT SERVES NO PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO ANNOY THE MODERATORS AND ADMINS.

I'm locking this topic until I am certain that any discussion of it can be done in a polite and respectful way.