I seem to remember that before 734 went down there was talk about the railroad needing a lot of track work.
Al

From the WMSR web site:

"The prospect of 1309 in steam remains exciting. The H-6 class had a lot in common with earlier 2-6-6-2s on C&O, but the 1300s also had improvements you’d expect from postwar locomotives, including roller bearings and improved lubrication. Obsolete though they were on paper, they nonetheless were magnificent machines, in compound mode delivering as much as 77,900 pounds of tractive effort through their two sets of six 56-inch drivers."

I haven't been able to find any FRA orders to this effect on the FRA website. Since a requirement for "all" good ties would go far beyond anything required by FRA track rules, if FRA were requiring anything like this, there would almost certainly be an "emergency order" on FRA's website imposing the requirement and explaining why it was necessary. Does anyone have a citation to such an order?

If they're not on the general system, they don't even need to meet Class I - though FRA may slow them down to below 10 MPH.

People are handwringing over this, but they seem to be *presently* Class II - the Stone report just says they have some work upcoming. However I saw a lot of errors on that report - the 5 or 8 ties per 39' section *include* the joint ties, so it's 5 or 8, not 7 or 10. The author didn't even know that. Also the report grossly underestimates the service life of ties in good ballast section. Correct those numbers and you're talking about more like 1200 ties a year.

Well heck, Western Railway Museum's volunteer crew does that much! For little more cost than ties, OTM and mechanized equipment maintenance. In about 24 workdays a year, because they're mechanized.

My rule of thumb for commercial installation of bought new ties is $40,000 for mobilization then $110-120 a tie depending on pricing. So that's $130,000 a year plus mobilization, which you don't have to do every year. That railroad is such a money-earning machine that you shouldn't have any trouble raising that.

I don’t want to wade into this mire, but I thought the readers would like this piece from Railfan and Railroad Magazine. It’s at least better written than the local newspaper piece:

http://railfan.com/with-co-1309-almost-ready-western-maryland-scenic-turns-to-track-work/?fbclid=IwAR0IDyzNBFjCSUr12ysR4SmcJM8lihvTlfAg-2087DP-8TOn9MdIDMJ3dlU

You're referring to "Excepted Track". FRA rules for that prohibit live passenger moves of a full-sized train, I think even for a disconnected line. Probably speeder rides are allowed though.

Lots of rules for excepted track, but we'll cut to the chase.
§ 213.4 Excepted track.
A track owner may designate a segment of track as excepted track provided that -
.....
(e) The railroad conducts operations on the identified segment under the following conditions:
(1) No train shall be operated at speeds in excess of 10 miles per hour;
(2) No occupied passenger train shall be operated;


#1 is fine, though I seem to recall they did at least 15 but hat was a long while ago. The real kicker is #2, that seems like it would cut into your passenger revenue a bit.



That's true, but.. Joints usually aren't square, and you often need more than one tie per joint since they can be suspended as well as supported. "5 ties per 39" looks good on paper. In reality, where the timber meets the steel, 7 is a more realistic number.

Also, keep this in mind. The FRA rules are a condemnation standard, NOT a design standard. If you build/maintain to them, you have no room for error. Think about it. 5 ties per 39 feet. That's one tie every 8 feet (OK, a bit less, but not much). Do you really want to run revenue trains on track with a good tie only once every 8 feet?



$40K for mobe? Dang, I'm working in the wrong part of the country. We usually charge $10K. The $110 to $120 sounds about right though.

“Also, keep this in mind. The FRA rules are a condemnation standard, NOT a design standard.”

This fact has baffled me as I’ve read some of the replies on here. Especially considering they want to operate a 430,000lb. Locomotive on this track! (The 734 is 268,000 by comparison and she wasn’t exactly a small locomotive.).

That greater weight is spread over more than twice as many axles, 734 v. 1309, and 1309 has a longer wheelbase. This may not be that big an issue; 1309 was built to operate on mine branches, not the mainline.

A key part of the tie standards that most are overlooking is the maintain gage, surface and alinement. Even if you have the minimum number of non-defective ties, if the geometry is changing due to the traffic, there are still not enough ties. Also remember what defines a non-defective tie - things like no more than 1/2" gage movement, etc. The other issue is that these are "under load" measurements, so you have to recognize any movements that take place as equipment moves over it. This can really be tricky with the surface measurements. You also have to watch the warp (213.63) and multiple joint warp measurements (213.63 - Footnote 2).

The whole issue of ties is actually much more complicated than most people realize.

If you want to get the full details, the University of Tennessee's Center for Transportation Research regularly holds week-long workshops on the Track Safety Standards (49 CFR Part 213). I've taught a number of these since we started in 1992 holding the workshops.

Bart

There is a link to the actual Stone Consulting report over on the Trains Magazine forum, and I recommend anyone interested in this issue actually read it.

An interesting point was that ZERO joint ties inspected were bad, neither the ones under or the ones adjacent to a joint. Nothing was said about the ex-PRR joints in lighter rail being any different from the ex-WM main with 132#.

There is a chart that appears to indicate that if enough isn't done the number of ties that are bad will become critical (ISTR 48% good, with the number printed in red) and to avoid this 2500 ties per year would be strategically replaced. This is where two things become fairly unfortunate:

1) WMSR has no tie-replacement machinery at all, not on hi-rail vehicles, and not on track. A specific note was made that they should not use off-track equipment either to do grading or tie replacement given the characteristics of tie degradation.

2) as written (ironically, to prevent abuse) a couple of WMSR's grants require that their volunteers not participate in any way in work that is done. Apparently the model for some of the language was plumbing or sewer work, where local municipalities might featherbed employees, engage in nepotism, etc. -- you can immediately see the impending disaster to do the necessary non-specialist work on a large steam locomotive.

With respect to the bridges -- apparently the state is the owner of record, and is responsible for the inspection reporting to the FRA. It was unclear the extent to which this also applied to tie replacement, but I strongly suspect that for WMSR not to have any functioning tie-replacement equipment at this point, it would seem likely. In that light the proposed $3 surcharge for track improvement needs to be considered: it can't possibly pay 'contractors' to do the necessary work, and it might be argued that it couldn't even using WMSR-acquired equipment and volunteer labor as much as possible.

The vertical curve to the turntable is (correctly, in my outsider's opinion) the most critical detail of the proposed regrade -- Stone Consulting not sharing the opinion of some of us here that the turntable could be dropped ;-}. It is instructive to read the report's account of this situation, and perhaps even more for those serious preservationists here who understand the practical import to comment on what the best solution now would be.

.

Mr. Anderson raises an interesting point. sadly, all the evidence seems to indicate that the answer is yes.

The critical issue now is.....will the state/county be willing to pony up another $ 2M plus or will the railroad be shut down indefinitely??

And, keep in mind that the 1309 is by no means ready to go into service. Ahead comes the very important break-in phase where she is put through her paces to uncover the bugs ( trust me, it's a 100% certainty there will be bugs) and have the time and funds to fix them.

Let's all stay supportive and help where we can.

Ross Rowland

The track section shown in Kelly's photo appears to be one of the areas where the remaining track was shifted to allow for the trail; this was done in a number of places when the trail was built, 15 or so years ago. In those areas, the ties were all new. Of course, when all the ties are new at the same time, they almost all reach the end of their service life (25-30 years) at the same time.

Over much of the former WM mainline segment, tie condition is reasonably good. 4 to 5 new ties per 39-foot segment brings those areas well into Class 2+ for tie count. There are a few areas that need 1/4 to 1/3 of the ties replaced in a given mile.

Ridgeley Yard needs a lot of ties, which is not uncommon for yard track- it's usually playing second string to mainline MOW work.

As for MOW equipment, there are two tie cranes (the RTW tie crane works well), one older Geismar tie remover/inserter which works well, a couple of large production machines out of service, plus a full array of smaller power and hand track tools, including hydraulic spike puller and driver, rail saw, rail drills, air tampers, etc.

There is an older hi-rail grapple truck being rehabbed for service, which is a good piece of equipment to have for tie work.

A very nice 70-ton 50-yard side dump car (a must for maintaining a mountain railroad) was apparently scrapped some years ago by a previous management, most unfortunate. I saw that car in 2002 and was impressed by it's condition.

The MOW situation is not hopeless. Resources are needed for production tie replacement. The basics are in place for on-going maintenance work.

Howard P.

By my estimate, if every single tie in the 16 miles was replaced, based on two-foot tie centers,, you'd need 42,240 ties. But, if you replaced every third tie in the 16 miles, you'd only need 14,080 ties. A friend told me today he just got a quote of $53 a tie for new 7-inch industrial grade ties, so if the tie and its installation ran to $100 each, you're looking at $1.4 million. I guess that's better than $2 million.