That's fair. To anyone on here who knows a bit bout steam, what kind of damage might we expect the 3512 to have suffered from landing upside down on the silt at the kind of speed she fell at? I'm curious about it. In the documentary, they mentioned the possibility of mapping out what was underneath the silt to be able to look at it better, so hopefully that becomes a reality so we can get a better idea of what's left of the engine underneath the mud.

I also wonder why the engine ended up upside down when all the other equipment is sitting upright. I thought it would make more sense for the locomotive to be upright but i guess not.

I think it's rolled since the first images were taken.

I just finished watching the documentary. The tender, the wood caboose, and the snowplow all look relatively undamaged, but the only thing that I could really identify as part of a locomotive, upside-down or otherwise, was a dome cover laying on its own in the silt. It doesn't look like it let go without a fight either. I couldn't really tell what that piece of twisted metal was that they got the ROV's umbilical cord tangled around. I was expecting to see locomotive wheels pointing skyward but there was no sign of them in the footage they showed. From the size of the impact crater they described, it sounds like she must have hit bottom pretty hard.

They do show parts of the locomotive, but they are hard to identify unless you're an expert. It's hard to tell, but they show part of it that appears to be either the rear of the locomotive towards the cab, or the pilot, i can't tell but it's definitely part of the locomotive itself. It looks like it might be a running board with some brackets and piping visible. Maybe someone here can chime in. It's possible that more of the locomotive is visible, but they did not have time to film it. It is stated in the film that just as they were starting to get more detailed shots of the "machinery" but the camera feed died out. Hopefully another expedition someday can reveal more. I'd like to know what kind of damage is present and what kind of shape the locomotive would be in if it were to be viewed in full and inspected by a crew of experts. The twisted metal may be part of the cab, boiler jacket, or running board, if i had to guess.

Interesting and well done documentary. I'd only previously seen the 1995 expedition footage that was in black and white so it was fascinating to see everything in colour.

A couple of observations;

- There appears to be virtually no deterioration on the other pieces of equipment as compared with images taken on the 1995 expedition, only more accumulated silt. Both end doors into the van were open on the '95 expedition, one is now somehow closed.

- The steam dome cover is a new discovery. That it came off isn't surprising - its just a heavy gauge sheet metal cover held on by gravity.

- The images of the locomotive at 1:14:25 - 1:14-30 are very interesting. They are far more clear that what I saw on the 1995 expedition footage but are extremely brief and don't conclusively shed any light on the condition of the locomotive - only raise more questions. What you are looking at is the underside of the fireman's side of the cab. The distinctive inward narrowing curve of the running board is prominently visible where it tapers into the walkway to access the air compressor. An airline is clearly visible bolted to the underside of the running board. I've matched the image to the period photo of the #3512 below. Of note is the pipe from the air compressor with the 90 degree bends and the bottom end of the broken off compressor is just slightly visible.



- 1:14:02 is an interesting view - the large domed rivet heads on the cross member almost look like the the rear mudring of the back end of the firebox. If so, that means the ashpan (and #4 driver!) is completely gone - more on that in a moment... The base of the rear wall of fireman's side of the cab is visible.

- 1:14:43 looks like the tender drawbar pocket.

- 1:14:48 the bent piece of metal they get the ROV tether snagged on is VERY interesting, especially how its peeled off and facing forward.

What I find most interesting is what IS NOT visible. NO ashpan, NO brake rigging, NO frame and NO axles/wheels/rods. They are complete gone..

I think it rolled nose first and sideways off the barge, twisted upside down, broke away from the tender, hit the bottom upside down, nose first at an 80-85 degree angle and hit HARD (hence the big 60 meter crater). When it hit, I believe the big flat smokebox acted as a brake, the cylinder saddle shattered, the frame/running gear carried by momentum sheared off, slid forward, buried in the silt and the boiler/cab 'flopped' back into the sediment as if on a hinge. That would explain why the drivers are not visible, the ashpan is gone, the firebox mudring is visible and the piece of metal that the ROV tether was snagged on is peeled off and twisted forward.

(And to address a misconception that seems to be floating around about the accident, there's no evidence on the wreck or from survivor's testimony that the boiler either exploded or imploded. There's no chunks of asbestos or jacketing littering the lake bed and an underwater explosion (or implosion releasing steam) would have resulted in a loud bang followed by a massive geyser on the surface similar to a WW2 depth charge attack, none of which was reported back in 1947).

Another expedition would shed more light on the condition of the locomotive (no pun intended), but from what I'm seeing, the evidence suggests the locomotive is completely destroyed. Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

It would be interesting to compare the footage of the wreck to the #3512's closest surviving sister, the #3522 in Beinfate (Saskatchewan). Next time I'm out that way I'll take some comparison photos and update the thread.

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RwC

Please excuse the crudeness, I whipped this up rather quickly. Here's my take away from the footage - The circled area is what was shown in the film. The sandy area is what is buried in the silt and the red areas are simply gone...

Curious what others see...

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RwC

The documentary can be seen here (with the time stamps referenced in my above post) - https://tubitv.com/movies/100019460/the-last-stop-canada-s-lost-locomotive#:~:text=Watch%20The%20Last%20Stop%3A%20Canada's,2020)%20%2D%20Free%20Movies%20%7C%20Tubi

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RwC

I think that's a very interesting take. It would have been nice to have seen her sitting pretty and upright on the bottom with all her "Jewelry" still in place, but that's just not the reality that we are faced with unfortunately. The thing that confused me was the lack of visible running gear. But at the very least, i imagine that even if the boiler and running gear separated from each other, the frame and wheels should be fairly intact beneath the silt, with damage similar to a head on collision at about 30 mph into a giant pile of mud. But who knows? At the very least, despite her sorry state, the the fact that the 3512 still exists at all is wonderful along with the history attached to her story.

If she hadn't fallen off the barge, she would have been cut up at the end of the steam era and her legacy reduced to pictures and a mere number in an archive of CPR's roster in the steam era. At the very least, we know that she is still there, sleeping peacefully and in good company with the rest of her train. That alone is beautiful and poetic. But if i had to guess, she's probably not the greatest candidate for operational restoration. But maybe if a particularly passionate fan of her won the lottery, maybe something could be done with her running gear, but i'm not holding my breath for that to happen in my lifetime.

Interestingly, there is a note at the end of the film that claims that there are plans underway to extract the wreckage from the 3512. It'll be neat to see what comes of that effort, they have a lot of red tape to cut through and whether they decide to raise the caboose or plow, or go big and try to extract the locomotive itself remains to be seen. But even if that doesn't happen, she's in deep water and even further protected by the silt, so she'll probably outlast just about every other preserved steam locomotive on land today. 3512 gets the last laugh in that regard.

As Doc Brown would say- ‘please excuse the crudity of this model’ but it’s the only toy train I have laying around to be able to demonstrate. I’m guessing this is roughly the angle the #3512 was at when it hit the bottom. Who knows what could happen when a 98 ton locomotive falls 700 feet and is suddenly stopped by an immovable object? The physics involved are astounding. As far as I know, this is the only accident of its sort involving a steam locomotive, especially where the wreckage has been documented. After surviving a plunge like that, it’s incredible that there’s anything left to photograph, let alone potentially recover artifacts from.

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RwC

Very interesting. There is little doubt that the boiler and running gear came apart judging from the footage (unless it's somehow hidden or buried in some strange way but i doubt it) .What i wonder is this: During the days of steam, there were many wrecks where steam locomotives met head on at high speed (in both directions to boot). In this case, we are also talking about a steam locomotive with a lot of momentum coming to a very sudden stop with some equally astounding physics at play.
Why is it that so many locomotives could survive wrecks like that intact and be rebuilt, yet the 3512 broke apart in the way that it did.

I'm just curious about how the physics would compare and how a locomotive would be affected by different circumstances. Would the destruction to the 3512 be due to the angle it hit at and the difference in loading, compared to other wrecks that occurred above water? Would that be the variable that would have caused the 3512 to break into two? I can imagine there must have been more shear forces at play with the 3512 given the angle it was at. I'm hoping that someone here can shed some light on the physics. We got to see part of her boiler and firebox area, and i'm curious what condition the running gear portion of it is in by comparison and how badly damaged it would be.

I know that it's unlikely to be restored or even raised, i'm just very curious about the hypothetical aspect of it. It seems that a lot of people thought for years that 3512 would be in good condition but it's not, so i wonder if those dreams of running again are technically impossible because of how wrecked it is or if it's still theoretically possible. It's a fascinating wreck that certainly deserves some discussion and further research. if it were to be raised, it would be better left as a static display. There are plenty of steam locomotives on display that are intact, so to see such a well preserved wreck from the steam era would be a unique exhibit.

I think the assumption was that terminal speed through water would be constrained hydrodynamically -- to a much slower terminal speed and hence impact than "actual". Damage to Titanic's stern ought to have (in my opinion) given a better indication if you knew what you were looking at...

I am still not quite sure how the locomotive was supposed to fall 'inverted' but I have never actually done a mass balance for 360-degree roll. No guarantee, though, that the locomotive would not oscillate or in fact start turning around at least one exis during its fall, with the 'damage' related to how it happened to be oriented during the actual collision (or is it allision) with the bottom. You'd need to be looking at a 3D view of the locomotive to be able to figure much of this out in the first place.

The documentary is now online and available to be viewed on Youtube (see link below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPKwTQU5xU0

The remains of the locomotive are only shown in brief glimpses of 1 to 3 second shots within a 2 minute segment beginning at the 1 hour 14 minute mark.

Here's what I can see off of the few images -

The locomotive is definitely upside down. The bulk of the footage is of the underside of the cab and the fireman's side walkway. What is interesting is what is NOT present - the frame and running gear. Virtually all the shots taken by the ROV would not be possible if the frame and running gear was still in place as the ROV is positioned where the machinery would normally be located.








This image is also very interesting as the space where the ROV is situated would normally be occupied the the #4 driver/frame/ashpan




Steam dome cover -



There is a lot of distorted metal that is all bent forward in the same direction toward the front of the locomotive (note the popped rivets visible in some of the images) indicating a violent impact with the bottom -









NOTE This image is part of the sequence in the film showing the remains of the locomotive, but upon closer inspection, I do not believe this image is of the locomotive but rather one of the skeleton log cars that was lost in the accident (most likely a mistake by the film editor who honestly had no idea what they were looking at...the angle it is resting on the lake bed isn't consistent with the images of the locomotive, it has an I beam frame, there's an uncoupling lever rod running across the top and a bent up stirrup on the right hand side)-




From what I see, the locomotive is upside down, buried to the running boards and missing its frame/wheels. I think its pretty definitive that it hit the bottom very hard and it is beyond practicable salvage (save for the shell of the steam dome).

Just my 2 cents, YMMV

73
RwC

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there are a myriad of major complications involved with salvaging this locomotive but BY FAR the most insurmountable is the Government of Canada environmental regulations. Unless you could 100% guarantee that NOT A PARTICLE of the asbestos boiler lagging and lead based paint would be disturbed in the salvage and contaminate the lake, the Federal Government Department of Fisheries and Oceans AND the BC Dept. of Wildlife and Wildlife Habitat would outright block any salvage attempt. Based on the fact the locomotive is upside down, smashed and buried..I'm going to go out on a limb and say its impossible and impractical to economically salvage it in a manner that would meet Govt. approval.

Sorry folks, #3512 isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV

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RwC

Lets just say hypothetically all the stars align perfectly and the remains of the locomotive are salvaged. Based on the ROV footage of the wreck at the bottom of the lake, here’s what I imagine you would wind up with (albeit with far more corrosion) –



…a tough sell to convince John Q. Public into loading the wife and kids up in the car to go see. It would only appeal to a very small group of individuals, to the vast majority of the public it would just be a rusty, smashed boiler that was formerly a locomotive.

As for the physics involved that led to the frame separating from the boiler, I’ll have to break things down in order to explain.

First off, you have to understand that a steam locomotive can be broken down into 3 major components – 1.) The fuel storage component (tender) 2.)The power generating component (boiler) and 3.)The drive train (frame/wheels/running gear/pistons and cylinders). In this scenario we’ll focus on components 2 and 3 as the tender broke free during the decent and did not factor into the frame separating from the boiler when the locomotive impacted the lake bed. The boiler is only rigidly secured to the frame in one location – the cylinder saddle. All the subsequent places are supportive rather than secured to permit thermal expansion/contraction of the boiler. I’ll have to take a look at the #3512’s surviving sister the #3522, but its either 10 or 12 substantial bolts securing the boiler to the cylinder saddle. The boiler is made of close grained, malleable sheet steel while the saddle is made from coarse grain cast steel that is rigid and not flexible.

Second, this incident is not comparable to a head on collision. In a collision (as long as the locomotive stays on the rails) the dynamic forces are linear in the horizontal plane and (although not good for the equipment) generally the impact force is distributed and absorbed through ought the locomotive to the point the forces are within the shock load strain tolerances of the materials and locomotive design. In the case of #3512, I can only guess what the dynamic forces at play were when the locomotive hit the bottom, but its certain that it was subjected to stresses way beyond what the designers ever imagined the locomotive would be subjected to in regular use. The locomotive was in free fall for 700 feet, pointed straight nose down and was suddenly stopped when it hit the lake bed (Hydrodynamic resistance would have occurred but not had a significant impact of slowing the locomotive’s velocity, neither would the 'softness' of the lakebed). Add to the multitude of factors that the locomotive went into the lake hot, so throw thermal shock and potential stress cracking to the steel into the mix.

With those two points in mind, it makes sense that it failed at its weakest point -the cylinder saddle. As demonstrated in my earlier post with the toy locomotive, I believe the locomotive hit the bottom upside down, nose first at an almost 90 degree angle, placing the full momentum shock load weight of the frame/drivers/pistons/rods momentarily on the cast cylinder saddle and it just shattered, letting the frame slide off the boiler and pile drive its self into the sediment of the lake bottom.

For a comparison of similar failures where an immense, non linear strain is suddenly subjected to the cylinder saddle, I would say rather than a collision, it failed in a way comparable to a crown sheet failure induced, catastrophic boiler explosion , where the rapidly expanding steam literally blows the boiler off the frame in a parabolic arch trajectory. Now please note, I am in no way saying #3512s boiler exploded, I’m just using a firebox crown sheet failure boiler explosion as a comparison to demonstrate how the boiler separates from the frame at the saddle. Note the picture below –



As for what condition the #3512s gear would be in today….I can’t even speculate, but it wouldn’t be pretty. It is most likely buried deeply in the mud and a twisted shattered mess.

Hopefully this sheds some light on the overall condition of the wreck and explains what MAY have happened that led to its current condition.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV

73
RwC

Those images you provided have done a great job of giving more context to the images i see in the documentary. Thank you for that. I believe your speculation is correct based on evidence. Although it's incredibly unlikely, part of me will always hope that the locomotive will be recovered, but there are so many problems with that and if it were easy to do, it would have been done already.

But judging from the info you provided, let's say we somehow managed to raise both the boiler and running gear and place them next to each other as a display. It sounds like what you'd see would be something like this, along with the smashed boiler.




I can see why it might not be worthwhile to try to salvage it. I notice a lot of comments from people who hope to see the locomotive run again. (it's a nice sentiment and all) But it would be insanely expensive just to raise it, and to return it to a condition where it could RUN again would be very ambitious and test even the most skilled restoration shops and crews, and would be horrifically expensive on top of all of that. And it would still need a place to run and insurance on top of that. It's better left as it is, as a unique and historic artifact.

However, i would love to at least see a 3D scan of the wreck, above and below the silt so we can look it in detail from the comfort of our homes. Even if a lot of these lost locomotives cannot be recovered, it would be interesting to see them digitally scanned and preserved in a sense without having to bother with heavy lifting equipment and all the red tape involved with an actual salvage operation. These long lost locomotives are in a unique and seldom discussed category of "preserved" steam locomotives completely separate from static displays in parks and museums, and running locomotives. They certainly deserve to be discussed and studied as much as possible.