And this is the crux of the matter right here. Besides a glossy magazine 4 times a year and the News 6 times a year, what benefits are we actually getting from the NRHS National organization? Do we receive assistance in our preservation projects? Ticket sales? Advertising? Recruiting new members? Besides a rather minimal amount towards preservation projects (which is funded through donations solicited separately) I haven't seen any real, tangible benefit from my national dues at $39 or $50.

While the recent communications from NRHS President Molloy notes that "committees are being formed" to make some of these services available from the National NRHS to the Chapters, it doesn't mention if these are to be provided with an additional cost or not. If these are simply "pay us more and we'll do this for you" services we can't really include them as a benefit from our increased dues. Chapters could simply handle these things themselves or hire a company to do them directly.

About the only thing that I (and others I have discussed this with) have come up with as to the tangible benefits to the Chapters and Members to remain with NRHS national is that they are a member of a "National" organization. Some people, organizations, corporations are more likely to donate to / assist with projects of a "Chapter of a National organization" instead of a "local collection of mildly bothersome rail fans." However, is this still the case or just the sum of collected experience for the past 30 years? If your local group is a 501(c)(3), the financial benefit to the donating party remains the same and the PR benefit is arguably similar since the local Chapters handle any "thank you" messages and news releases anyway.

In the end, the discussion boils down to two points: 1) Are we getting additional benefit for a more than 20% increase in our dues and 2) Do we still have confidence in the management at NRHS National. I (like many members) have heard stories of the financial management issues at National, though who is to say what the actual truth is? One thing that is quite concerning is the fact that financial reports at the National level for the past few years are not available for review, even to the National Directors / Advisory Committee. While I don't know the true financial situation at National, I do know that I have significantly more confidence in the budgeting, accounting, and independent review of the books of my own Chapter and the current month's financial reports are available to any member upon request.

If all we continue to get for our $50 each year is 10 magazines, in my opinion we all might be better off if we purchased a subscription to Classic Trains (which arguably has more "historical" articles than the Bulletin). Heck, if we went to them as a single massive group, we might get a better subscription price than $50 / year.

While I'm not dumping NRHS National at this point, it is certainly something that needs careful consideration. I do hope that they get the message from the public display of discontent that, even if they go through with this dues increase in its current form, the membership is not ready to support any further increases over this new level for years to come. Continued dues increases with no additional services (as we have seen over the past few years) is about the best way to drive off members that I can think of, and it's a total loss to the Chapters when that happens since the Chapters aren't receiving any of the higher dues that National is.

(Opinions expressed here are my own and do not necessarily match those of my Chapter's membership or Board)

I'm not quite sure why some people are saying that the financials for the national NRHS are not available. They certainly are and have been presented at several recent board meetings, and as part of a routine review by the IRS and other organizations. A review of the financials was why the Board of Directors recommended the dues increase. Some of the NRHS leadership has been calling for clearer and more detailed financials, and they are probably heading that way. One of the problems is that they are set up to meet IRS and other codes, and are not fully set up as more modern operating financials that show long term commitments as costs when the decision is made, not when it actually happens. For example, there have been some recent cases where decisions made three or four years ago suddenly hit the pocket book, and conditions and costs have changed. Are the financials published on the web for everyone to see? No, and probably shouldn't be, but they are available. If a director or your chapter adviser board member doesn't attend the meetings, then the word doesn't get out.

Again, what is the purpose of a national organization? For the NRHS, it provides legal assistance contacts with dealing with railroads who have anti-railfan photography rules (see Don Phillips recent series of columns in Trains Magazine or the workshop/seminar at the Iowa convention). It does have the magazine. It operates conventions that can be used to attract new members if chapters work with the convention. (Some have benefited greatly from conventions. However, several local chapters have stated that they don't want to even be at the convention, loosing a chance to attract new members. For example, in Iowa, the NRHS attracted more than 100 new members from that state, but some of the Iowa Chapter's leadership, even when asked, stated that they didn't want to participate.) It does provide funding to assist with historic preservation (look at the recent list of projects - they look valuable to me - but applications are often scarce from chapters and many come from more professional groups).

The NRHS has been taking historic and company films and where allowed, slowly moving them to digital formats. It does have an office that can help chapters with their record keeping,if the chapters want the help. It runs Railcamp, a program being copied by other groups. It's website has listings of all chapters (but note how few chapters have website or e-mail links that they have provided) and its Facebook page promotes chapter events. Many of these items seem to be what people have complained that the organization doesn't do.

The question is again what does each member want from the organization, just like any organization that people can join. If it doesn't provide the benefits - it is often because leadership doesn't know what to provide because the members don't let it be known. For example, reading the five pages of discussion here, I have yet to see clearly a list of benefits that someone wants from NRHS membership. At the Board meetings, there is often a whole lot of gee this would be nice, but no plans on how to do it or how to pay for it. What are people really wanting and what will they pay for it? For some people, I hate to tell them that the $10 all day mainline steam trip days are over - and yes I get requests for that on my charter trains.

I was once very active in NRHS, being a chapter president and attending many meetings and working on committees. I saw change and resistance to change, and burned out and dropped out, keeping my membership but not really participating. I run my own rail events for smaller groups and enjoy that. I write articles for magazines and enjoy doing my rail research (and get some neat train rides and speaker invites from railroads). I sometimes voice my opinion about the NRHS and other organizations, and then go back to my own activities. I was asked a few years ago to step in and try to make a few changes on some NRHS events and to help modernize some of the activities. Since then, I have received public praise and insult, and lots of behind-the-scenes complaints by the older leadership. Guess what - it is just like every other organization that I have ever been a member of.

Interesting to hear you say that, as my chapter's representative on the Advisory Committee has been to the recent board meetings and has been unable to locate a copy of said financial information. The best we have been able to get is "well, there's about $X in account Y", which neither answers the question or provides a valid picture of the financial state of the organization.

The other objection I have to the dues increase is the procedural nature of how it was implemented. Apparently the increase was voted upon without the input of the Advisory Committee, which was implemented specifically so that a representative from each chapter would be available to advise the board of directors. It seems disingenuous to create a body which is supposed to provide input from each chapter and then take action that will impact every chapter without discussing the matter with them first.

Bartman-TN said:
"Are the financials published on the web for everyone to see? No, and probably shouldn't be, but they are available. If a director or your chapter adviser board member doesn't attend the meetings, then the word doesn't get out."

And just why shouldn't the National's financial reports be available on its website? Not having them available on the website is not being transparent -- and we absolutely must have transparency from the National.

The main value that I see from the National is that it now puts on our annual conventions, although a very small percentage of members actually go to those conventions. The rest of us who don't (or can't) go can enjoy them second-hand through slides and videos and magazine articles. Is that worth staying a part of a national organization that keeps its financials hidden from easy view and ignores its own Advisory Committee? I don;t think so.

One more thing: from what I have managed to learn, most of the dues the Nation collects are spent on the Bulletin. This is a nice magazine, but, really -- do we really need yet another magazine that much?

About that dues increase the National wants: Forget it! The Bulletin should be optional, and the dues should be decreased to reflect that. Oh, and while the National is making changes, they should bring back the Chapter Annual. That was, to me, THE most important thing the National did that actually affected me.

Thanks to all who have posted here! I really appreciate all the info.

One of the most valuable things a historical society can create is an archive and research library. A number of single railroad historical groups have created or have been working on such projects.

Does anyone have up to date information on the status of, and future plans for, the NRHS library? The last thing most of us heard was it had been sent to a storage facility in Western Massachusetts. An NRHS chapter was formed in that area a few years back, with one of the stated objectives (at that time) being to catalog and maintain the library.

Does anyone have more recent news on the library?

PC

"Are the financials published on the web for everyone to see? No, and probably shouldn't be".


The bold part is not only legally incorrect, but wrong on principal. This is not a private organization.

I agree with SH. Why would anyone think that info should be private? Non profits are legally required to disclose that info. Want to keep it private? Fine, but then don't ask for tax breaks!

Some pretty good info can be found on Guidestar.

General Info:
http://www.guidestar.org/ViewPdf.aspx?P ... 23-7053004

Form 990:
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2 ... f870-9.pdf

Add me to the list of folks that think that NRHS should post financial on the website, as part of the disclosure members should get, considering recent dues increases. Given NRHS is a 503c3 that gets tax breaks, it's the only thing to do.

However, I must disagree with Margaret on the Bulletin. The new format is the best the publication's looked in years while the Annual Activities Issue/Yearbook was a complete waste of paper and effort. I'm glad they did away with it. I seem to recall that during the final year it was offered to members as an extra-cost item, I guess there were not many takers since that idea quietly died. Now if National wanted to bring it back as part of an updated web page, I could support that but good luck getting all the chapters to participate.

$50 is too much.

I'm basing that on the membership rates for a variety of non-NRHS museums and rail historical societies nationwide. Take the Ann Arbor, Western Maryland or Reading groups. It'll cost you twice as much to join an NRHS chapter that's half as good. Or, you can do it the other way and compare the NRHS's magazines to commercial publications. Or hey: First and Fastest.



Yeah, yeah, I know, the fiefdoms must be paid, well actually no, they don't. And they won't. And they can't.

As you raise dues you lose members. Your total revenue is dues X members. There's a sweet-spot where total revenue "maxes out". Dropping dues below that sacrifices more in dues than it brings in new members. Raising dues above that costs you more members than you gain in dues. That sweet-spot is the absolute maximum possible dues that can possibly be obtained.

Get "stuck" on the wrong side of the sweet-spot, and look out, because the economics "fail-deadly". You raise dues, which "should" raise revenue but in fact, revenue goes down! They raise rates because of members leaving, so more members leave so they raise rates so more members leave. It's a death spiral. The money simply is not there, and they're going in the wrong direction to find it. My hunch is that NRHS's financial needs exceed what would be available at the sweet spot.



No, no, no, no. You don't get to compare NRHS to wildly different activities like snowboarding or golf or flying a plane. It doesn't work that way. Consumers compare NRHS chapters' value to other comparable activities/organizations like NYCSHS or a KyRM membership. What seems to be happening is that national's cost burden is causing NRHS chapters not to be a competitive value among historical societies.

I'm a member of a bunch, I think at the high point, 2 of them were NRHS chapters, and I didn't renew with those because they were unduly high.

Or, for that matter, a subscription to Trains Magazine, which does its own preservation grants now. Or Railfan & Railroad, which also does some railfan support activities. Or, for that matter, a subscription to an online railfan site like TrainOrders or Eastern Rail News. Or a membership in the R&LHS, which produces a magazine that has for quite some time been far superior in historical and academic rail discussion than the NRHS Bulletin. Or paying for a rail photo charter. Or contributing directly towards a specific project, be it signs for the rail trail or motive power that you own for the excursions.

Now, some people will say that the NRHS preservation grants, the RailCamp program, the conventions, and the magazine/newsletter are worth supporting. Others will disagree, and have been in this thread.

Several people say you can't compare the NRHS dues to other activities. Why? All are things that you can do and support. I love to drive road courses and have been trying to drive many of the big tracks across the country. A number of times I have passed up a rail event to go driving. It is all a hobby and you have to make a decision as to what you will and won't support. If all you do is the rail hobby, that might be fine (but you might need to get a life) but even there what do you participate in? There are rail excursions that cost $8000 for a week and there are some that are $20 for an all day pass. Some history groups are relatively inexpensive while others have also gotten pretty expensive.

As far as putting financials on a website, the basics are available from other sources as submitted to the IRS. However, that form doesn't come close to showing the real financials of the organization, it is a history of what has happened based upon government standards, not real revenues and expenses which change almost daily. With the time it takes to update the NRHS website (another activity that is volunteer driven), any reports will be somewhat dated. Also, can you see the explanations that are required? For example, with the NRHS convention, some people made down payments while others made full payments. What numbers do you show - the total tickets sold, what cash has come in, etc. I can see those reports while working with the Alaska Railroad in planning car capacities and it often takes me an hour or more to figure out what happened as people upgrade a ticket, swap a ticket for another event, add a person to their registration, etc.

Since the NRHS pays bills on a monthly schedule, bills and bank accounts make wild swings several times a month. How up to date do you want the information? I could just see the complaints if the financials were immediately after paying a major bill - the NRHS is broke! - or just before the bills are paid - the NRHS is rich and doesn't need the dues! (both of which I have heard from the same person in the same conversation). I agree that putting the basic financial up would probably be good and put to rest some of the rumors that are out there, but I question if they would do much more than show the traditional debits/credits. The final part of this is how much explanation is going to be needed for everyone to understand the numbers and how current can they be.

What would make much more sense to me is to post the operating financials when a decision is made. For example, when the Iowa convention was originally planned by the old convention committee, their assumptions were very bad. The hotel they planned to use was being torn down. They assumed no need for insurance, that they could run some trips on lines that weren't really available using cars that weren't available, etc. The planned costs were so low that it was almost funny, and having had them posted originally would probably have altered the decision to even have a covention in Iowa. This was back with the big board and it seems that more time was spent arguing over other conditions then this. I have never found a full copy of their original plans for that convention, only what the railroads and hotels had in their files.

Being around that convention, and then seeing the planning for the Alaska convention, more financials were looked at. Many of the decisions about the 2014 convention were heavily based upon the financials as there were several locations and options and the costs and likely revenues were lined out pretty well. I wasn't at the BofD meeting in Minnesota, but I did see the basics of the financials for the two proposals.

The issue though gets back to what type of financials should be on the NRHS website, how current will they be, and in many cases, how relevant are they.

Finally, I very much agree that the Laffer Curve applies. There is a dues amount that will result in the maximum revenue, and net after all expenses are paid. However, I have never seen any analysis of this curve for groups like the NRHS. I deal with it a great deal in freight transportation, but I also recognize that moving more freight isn't always the best answer - it is often moving the freight that can pay to be moved. As I stated earlier - what is the right size for the NRHS? Most large rail enthusiast groups in North America are in the 500 to 1000 member range, with a few with 2000 or more. The NRHS is especially large for the U.S. with about 14,000. A better business model might be for there to be a chapter membership fee for a certain level of services based upon the size of the chapter (a very common model for many organizations). NRHS could then issue information to each chapter for distribution to its members. Then, events like the convention, Railcamp, and others have a higher registration fee where an individual membership is not a factor or requirement. Think about that option...

"Since the NRHS pays bills on a monthly schedule, bills and bank accounts make wild swings several times a month. How up to date do you want the information? I could just see the complaints if the financials were immediately after paying a major bill - the NRHS is broke! - or just before the bills are paid - the NRHS is rich and doesn't need the dues! (both of which I have heard from the same person in the same conversation)."

Stop the conversation and recommend they buy a copy of "Accounting for Dummies".

Refer them to the sections on the periodicity assumption and accrual accounting.

"The issue though gets back to what type of financials should be on the NRHS website, how current will they be, and in many cases, how relevant are they."

GAAP requires the following.

Statement of Financial Position (balance sheet)

Statement of Activities (income statement)

Statement of Cash Flows.

Accompanying notes to the financial statements.

Nothing else should be published for public consumption, except for what is required on the 990 or its variants.

In yet another example of communications failure, this dispatch came to me by e-mail today. Some would call this simply an "oops" or oversight, but I've already heard from one individual who said what I could paraphrase as "Oversight, my a**!":

What about looking at this from a fresh perspective.

Instead of thinking about whether $50 of dues are worth it, what about $1?

I figure I'm the absolute perfect target market for an NRHS membership acquisition. I'm in my low 30s, have some money to play with, and am interested in railroad preservation.

Why should I spend my $50 on an NRHS membership instead of on a subscription to Classic Trains?

What goods and services does a membership provide me?

I can get my fix of train photos on Railpictures.net, and I can get my update on railroad current events on Facebook. What unique value does the national NRHS provide me?

If there isn't a single sentence answer for that, then I'm afraid the organization might just be a group dedicated to collecting dues so that they can pay someone to collect those dues (ie, a giant waste of time and money). I wouldn't have any desire to get involved in a group like that.

Have you looked at the discount list on nrhs.com; it's as good an example of economy of scale as you'll find anywhere.

of course, if all you want to do is stay home and look at other people's pictures.....

Bob H