Erice, I believe he can be contacted through the Western New York preservation group. That would be where I'd begin.

Al Crisp here; We are trying to get some interest in the loco as a display at the John Street round house in Toronto. I doubt that interest would be enough for a runner but at least we would have the only survivor of the original P2 class.
Moving is not a big deal from what I can see if the ground is firm and the wheels will turn.[I moved big stuff for a living most of my life]. If all the switches still work it is a matter of pulling back to scale track with panel track to reach. Then move it to the neighbours yard. He has what I need to move it, a big front end loader. Looking at the equipment he has getting cranes and floats into his yard is easy and the siding over the paved street will work just fine.
Talking to my contacts in the haulage business ,moving the tender over the road and the loco by rail are the best options these days. Road movement is costly with a 6500 dollar charge for a survey of each bridge Dead haulage by rail on it's own wheels I do not think is an option anymore but I can check it out. There is a very limited number of cars that can move that weight and dimensions in fact I have only found 1 in the QTTX fleet. Does someone have the name and contact of the shortline. I notice it dead ends a short way along. Al Crisp

Contact Dennis Daugherty in Sacramento, CA. He specializes in arranging and loading of steam locomotives/tenders on flatcar moves across the country, and does well at it.

Uh, I think Dennis is now at the Age of Steam Roundhouse, far from Sacramento. Now in Roseville, CA (just north-east of Sacramento) there is Taylor Trucking, who has moved many locomotives. I worked with them to move SP 1215 from Hanford, CA to Portola CA. Very good folks!

If you bring it to John Street, literally where would it go? There are only two tracks on the property that have been certified by engineers to support the weight of a steam locomotive (as the entire museum sits above a parking garage, for those who don't know) and of course, one of them holds 6213. Of course, looking at how much trouble it has been to get 6213 painted since it arrived in 2009, I don't think the museum is capable of really doing anything. Who is running the place now?

John Street had a retired nuclear engineer as CMO for a minute, until they scared him (and a few others, including myself) off.

John Street should be looking to get RID of equipment, not bringing more in. The museum is not sustainable in the long run. They can't even restore anything (properly) let alone maintain anything, especially operating equipment, which is all a death trap...

For me i think she was the perfect fit for Toronto railway museum the 5361 operated in toronto all long of his career. Where you get the museum is not sustainable?????

For the parking garage i don't know the detail but if the enginer not take the size of the roundhouse in consideration we are a problem

Al Crisp here again; I was unaware of the track parking or politics at the Roundhouse. Is this from a complete site stand point or were only what was needed certified??? I only posted what I did from a professional stand point and from a suggestion of a friend of the roundhouse to see if interest could be generated. As a Canadian Pacific family member and lifelong fan and modeller of CPR in the area it ran ,I would much rather see the beast come home where ever it went. Better then being cut up as it would only get between 15,000 and 20,000 US at current scrap pricing.
Looking at the records 5361 was assigned to Sudbury ON. in the last years of operation. That means it could have been run to Toronto as there was steam as far as Mactier and further if needed.
I hope something good comes of this as it all seems to be short notice and doing a job like this is much easier when there is no snow too contend with. Laying on one's back in the wet and slush feeding cables is no joy believe me! If only they had left all the track in place. Cheers Al

Here's how the John Street Roundhouse site is configured:

-The actual roundhouse sits on solid ground, as are the two tracks that run under the coal plant
-The turntable sits on a heavy foundation, but still over the parking lot, in fact you can park UNDER the turntable.
-However, all other tracks, INCLUDING most of the tracks running from the roundhouse stalls to the turntable are suspended over the parking garage.
-We were all sent an engineering study that mapped out which equipment could go where. For example, passenger cars (Such as the Cape Race, Jackman and GO Car), due to their longer wheel base, were permitted to be put out into the park. Switchers, such as the ALCO and Baldwin, could NOT be put into the park, because of their shorter wheel base. The issue here is that on equipment with a shorter wheel base, the weight of that equipment would only be transferred to ONE of the support columns in the parking lot below, whereas longer equipment would be supported by at least TWO columns. In other words, the columns in the parking garage are too far apart to support the weight of the locomotives.
-Also only certain combinations of equipment were allowed out in the park. If recall correctly, it was ok having the GP7 out in the park, but only certain other equipment could be out there as well. As well, the tracks on either side of the GP7 can't have any equipment on it, when it's there.
-And there are talks and rumours of bringing in more locomotives in the future, for example the LRC (which the museum does own) and other locomotives that may be donated in the future.
-I got into an argument with management about this next point: According to the latest issued engineering report, based on the way it was worded, it technically excluded 6213 from going inside the roundhouse (because it passes over a section of radial track that the report considered inadequate to hold 6213. I asked the management to confirm if this is true or a typo (because it did change from an earlier issued report), but I was blown off. WHAT is the point of having a report if you're just going to do whatever you want?

Why is the museum untenable?
-The museum has no equipment for maintaining or restoring, for example, locomotives. It only has a small "carpentry shop". Management have forbidden equipment from being painting inside the roundhouse (which consists of three stalls, one a tiny "museum" with nothing to see, that you can get through in a minute, the next stall is occupied by a rotted out passenger car used as an office and lunchroom, leaving only one stall to work on equipment)
-The band of Merry Old Englishmen (M.O.E.) that are now left to handle all projects, have zero mechanical aptitude. They used spend their days on carpentry jobs, like residing a caboose or two, but that's it. Now those same guys are operating locomotives, switching equipment, making mechanical decisions... After talking to them, their complete lack of knowledge is terrifying to the extreme.
-There was never any kind of training or certification done. No one should be operating anything there, at the moment. We tried to start a certification program for things like the Whitcomb, the Pyke Crane, Switching Procedures, and Running the Turntable (after I witnessed one of the Merry Old Englishmen abusing the turntable). I even started writing an instructions manual and training course for the turntable, when we were all excommunicated (because the M.O.E.s didn't like our claim that they didn't know what the hell they were doing, or talking about...)
-Equipment stored permanently outside, next to a MAJOR tourist attraction that routinely attracts vandalism, and vagrancy. There is no security to speak of at the site. Heck that CNR GP7 was given the works by CN before it was donated to the City of Toronto in 1986 and ensconced inside the roundhouse for 20+ years. It was in mint condition when it was put away, but the past decade of being kept outside is really taking a toll on it. Plus the vandalism it receives...
-The previous regime did not maintain anything, and any repairs done were very poorly executed. For example, the CLC-Whitcomb switcher they have is in atrocious shape. It should not be allowed to run. among other things, it needs some serious brake work done, and remember, there is NO room for error in that park. When the Whitcomb and 6213 are on the turntable together, there is maybe 5" of clearance between couplers and the turntable railing. Don't forget, that when the brakes are applied to the Whitcomb, 6213 keeps pushing it, you hear the whitcomb skidding.
-When the new (now former) CMO, a former Nuclear Power Plant Engineer, and long time railway preservationist, who even owned a small locomotive leasing company, saw the state of the whitcomb, which he had worked on when it was at its previous home, he was shocked.
-Likewise the turntable, which cost millions to restore, hasn't received any maintenance. If that fails, I think there will be some tough questions for the museum to answer from the City of Toronto (which owns everything).
-Too many fingers in the Pot. In addition to having to deal with the City of Toronto, there is also the Steam Whistle Brewery that occupies one half of the roundhouse, and "the Rec Room" some kind of restaurant owned by Cineplex, that occupies the other half. This creates lots of problems... trying to balance their needs and wants with the needs of the museum. Guess who loses every argument...
-The museum has no storage space for anything, and what space they did have, off site, has been or will be lost. Leon's let them store stuff in a warehouse of theirs, but now that Leon's is out of the roundhouse, how long will that generous arrangement carry on for? Meanwhile, the work space is just stacked deep with crap. It's a nigtmare.
-The place is a death trap. Safety is a none issue, there have been so many close calls over the years, some of which I have seen personally, and all within inches of the public. If and when someone does get killed there, that will be the end of the place for sure.

Since 6213 arrived in 2009, working on it has been a nightmare. She was supposed to be repainted as far back as 2005 (when I first started helping out with her at the CNE), but that kept getting deferred because of the planned move to John Street. It's now 2018. Also in that time, she was almost never allowed to go into the roundhouse for restoration work or maintenance. Keep in mind that she was getting moved around fairly often since she arrived and we were unable to do any maintenance to any of the moving parts for a long time simply because we couldn't get under the engine. Back at the CNE we COULD get underneath by slithering around between the rails, but at John Street, there are paving stones between all of the rails, so it was impossible to get under the locomotive.

We finally did get her inside around 2015-2016 to service all the moving parts.

They're still bouncing around the idea of painting her (she looks like crap), but she won't be allowed to be painted inside the roundhouse. It will have to be done outside. Plus they want to paint it with brushes. How do I put this... 6213 was better off at the CNE... we could do all the work we ever wanted to there, and the concrete pad she sat on really helped for working underneath the locomotive... she had a fence... no one bothered her...it was great.

So in conclusion, they don't have the means or the skill to really work on anything. And the work they have done there... well...

...One day I walked in while the M.O.E.'s were working on 6213's cab, and at the exact moment I walked in, one of the M.O.E.'s was in the process of torching the bolts that held on one of the cab numerals, and after he cut the last bolt, the cast-iron numeral fell off the side of the cab, hit the ground, and snapped in half... Do not pass go... do not collect $200... please never touch another piece of railway equipment...

And you want to dump MORE equipment on to that place?

[edit]: The "smart" preservationist would start drawing up plans to RESCUE equipment from John Street

[edit]: don't forget Toronto already had a failed railway museum in the 1970s, that saw most of its equipment scrapped (though some of the junkier junk did end up at John Street).

Egad. Is there a railroad museum in Canada that really has its act together?

Nope. I saw a really cool museum in Italy, south of Naples back in 2012. An former FS backshop complex, right on the bay of Naples, that they decided to fill to the gills with historic equipment.

Even in Poland, the National Railway Museum in Warsaw has been in a state of being evicted from its present home for almost a decade or so now. Supposedly a fancy new site will be built, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Re: the John St. Roundhouse in Toronto - when I lived in Michigan in the late 90s I was recruited to assist with one of the periodic efforts to turn this complex into a museum. If you don't know the history, in brief - this area was a major rail terminal into the 1990s, and sits next to the CN Tower. After the RR moved out the city purchased the complex. Much of it now is a grassed-over park. As part of the work the city did the area underneath around - and partially under - the roundhouse was turned into a parking lot. Well-done, but definitely a hinderance to doing much rail-related to the site. Also, the proposed connection to the nearby CN/GO/VIA main line came off the turntable and ran at a right angle to the mainline, relying on a series of crossovers to ultimately connect. That wasn't ever likely to happen, so the museum would be rail-isolated. Over the years the city made some vague promises to fund a museum there.

Starting about 20 years ago, several groups (actually, mostly individuals) came forward with all sorts of proposals for a museum - some envisioning the Canadian version of Steamtown there. Given the landlocked nature of the site, and the constraints with the parking garage, and the lack of funding, how that was ever going to happen wasn't clear. I note that all these groups/individuals had a my-way-or-the-highway attitude and wouldn't work together. With one of these people I did have a tour of the site circa 1998, and I can confirm the carpentry shop was intact. Also inside were the ex-CN GP7, which was very nice, but beyond that, there were a few oddball freight cars, a wide-gauge Peter Witt streetcar, and a solarium car with roof damage. And all of vague/unclear ownership. Not much to start a museum with.

The move of 6213 to this site was part of some vague dream to restore it to operation and run it over CN. Given CN's attitude to steam trips then and now, the lack of any facilities in the roundhouse, lack of money, lack of mainline connection, etc. this was just a pipe dream as well. The 6213 was very well cared for at the fairgrounds - moving it to the roundhouse was likely a mistake.

Today it is yet another museum with a minimal collection, little or no funding, with a revolving door of volunteers and management, on a site they don't own.


As for the Canada museum scene: the museum in Delson seems to be well run. Beyond that, they have the ECRM in St. Thomas, which has had its own sad saga of lawsuits and infighting, and a few scattered groups. It is odd cities such as Toronto don't have more in the way of rail preservation or museums.

Chris.

Yep, it could have been something... Why couldn't they have allocated at maybe 1/3rd of the roundhouse to the museum? You know, so they could protect all that equipment?

OH, and the other death knell, was losing the machine shop, which was a huge space. Somehow Toronto Hydro got ownership of a part of land that had the machine shop on it (even though it's actually part of the roundhouse). The museum had been using it, and it could have played a part in giving the museum a place to work on equipment and display stuff.

But nope. The museum was kicked out, the machine shop was deconstructed, so Toronto Hydro could build a MASSIVE station under it, and of course once it was reconstructed, the museum was not allowed back in.

Even with the current configuration of the museum, that machine shop could have been a game changer.

Don't forget that at least one other building was supposed to have been preserved (the car shops), that would have made a fantastic display space.

So from 32 stalls, a machine shop, and a car shop, the museum has been whittled down to 3 stalls and that's it.

Oh, and the "carpentry shop" I mentioned, was just a little area inside the museum stalls where the M.O.E. work, it has nothing to do with any actual facilities that were there.

Chris, we went through this several years ago. You are referring to a very short period in the ECRM history around 2001. At the time the membership purged two people who were involved in some illegal activity at the museum. It went through a criminal trial and later a civil trial which the museum won.
It is now 17 years later. 90% of the active members at the time have either left for various reasons or have passed away. I'm included in the remaining 10%.
We have not had any similar problems since 2001 because of different personalities have moved in and we now have paid management running the place. So I would appreciate it if you would stop spreading falsehoods that have not been true for many, many years.

I am a bit confused here, have you purchased the locomotive from the owner?