Is visitation adequate to sustain that intensity of service?

Well, in my opinion the mission of Steamtown should include an operating steam train on all open days.

Is there adequate visitors for a second train running an extended excursion every weekend? That’s a bigger question but I think there would be in time and there certainly would be for “event weekends” - railfan weekend, autumn leaf, etc.

Visitation peaked at 211K in 1995. The grand opening year.

https://irma.nps.gov/STATS/SSRSReports/ ... dar%20Year)?Park=STEA


A lot has changed since then. It looks like,excluding '20 and '21, you get about 100K visitors with the 26 as the steam attraction.

The 2018 numbers published by Heritage Rail show Steamtown and Tennessee valley pretty close in attendance.

TVRM operates very similarly to what I described. Local trains daily, extended excursions on the weekends.

There was never enough interest to run daily. Steamtown USA tried that in the beginning before they were federalized. The immediate market is/was too small to support it. That is not to say that weekend trips would not be, or haven’t been, successful - both the Reading and Northern and Stourbridge Railroad are successful and draw from relatively the same pool.

You also cannot compare reported Steamtown visitation numbers with real world/private industry numbers. If they still have the webcam up it doesn’t take a genius to see that they aren’t drawing 100k people a year.

My semi-educated guess is that their annual attendance is maybe 50,000, if that, and declining as other private sector rail oriented offerings ( i.e. Lehigh Gorge Scenic, Strasburg, New Hope RR etc.) that feature steam are very well run and give good value for the dollar.

Steamtown will probably be lucky to field that little 0-6-0 for short rides around the yard if they do that much.

Always remember the place is there to be a jobs corp. Running steam powered trains is way down the priority list.

Sad but true. Ross Rowland

Agreed. There was a time there were excursions to Moscow twice daily Thurs-Sun, sometimes starting with a trip for Armed Forces Day, but generally from Memorial Day to the end of October. I think there were 190 trips per year, with the shuttle trips to the Lackawanna Station being offered the other days.

One of the things that's factors how frequently to operate is the 1472 day requirement, with the idea to extend that over the fifteen year requirement.

As for the visitation, you are correct-that doesn't mean ticket paying visitors as you might expect from private attractions. Although the dead mall is no longer a factor, it did used to bring down people from the food court who might wander down the pedestrian walkway for "look-see" and as I recall the interpretation division had methods to estimate that number.

So other than the Baldwin switcher, are they making any repairs to keep at least one steam locomotive ready for operation as required? The B&M 3713 appears to have been shelved as a display item for the time being.
Superheater, what is needed to return the CPR 4-6-2 to service?

Good point, and I think that it goes further than that. As has already been mentioned, advertising, social media efforts, and community interaction and support bring people to events. If some in an area are very active in these efforts, and others aren't, it is pretty easy to guess which will have more visitors.

There is also the issue of visitor/rider interaction with the event. I did track training and track work with Steamtown not long after it started under federal control, and it always seemed that the "customer" was the federal government, not the actual visitors. I rode a number of trains, and always got the impression that riders were a pain - lots of rules about what you couldn't do (adjust windows, change seats, use a restroom, etc.) and little about what you could do. Many of the other rail operations (some that I have done work for) seem to invite visitors to do things and seem much more welcoming. While they are certainly more tourist-oriented, they still often seem to be more historically accurate, or at least interesting.

A question to address is what is the interaction that visitors are looking for and how it is being provided. If folks are looking for several hours of tours and a ride to a destination, then operations like LGS certainly has an advantage. If folks are looking for a relatively intense history lesson, then Steamtown could be the place. However, most tourism studies today show that folks want to experience and do, not read and be lectured to (example: years ago I saw 2 modelers having a fight about the bolt design on N&W 611 when the real locomotive was outside running trips and they never went to see it - today you can go and operate it during some events). It is an important change that has taken place over the past 30 years and one that some are really taking advantage of, and others ignore at their own peril.

On the actual visitor counts, hard ticket sales can provide good numbers. However, if you are counting folks that just wander in and out, the count is not as accurate, especially if you are just using a few electric eyes or road tube counters to get your numbers. So in some ways, it is an apples and oranges game. For example, the several operations I deal with count paid ridership, but don't count people that just come out to the depot and public park and watch the train come and go.

But again, most of the local rail attractions are looking for the revenue from the visitors, while Steamtown is much less focused on revenue dollars and more on keeping a government administration happy (or at least satisfied). That may be the biggest difference, who the operation is being operated for.

Bartman you make some really good points. I just rode an all day 2102 steam powered excursion Reading-Jim Thorpe, Pa. that epitomized the friendly/welcoming atmosphere you spoke of. Everyone associated with the operator ( Reading & Northern RR ) couldn't have been friendlier and genuinely wanted us to have a great time. Those of us in the 10 open window coaches were allowed to roam the train as we wished, stick our heads out the window to witness the hard working steam giant up ahead hard at work and the excellent PA narration kept us abreast of where we were.

Contrast that with my memory of the experience at Steamtown. I rode a steam powered excursion during the 1st. year of operations ( 1995?) from Scranton to Moscow. I can still recall the nonsense we were put through. A series of dont's........ don't put your arm on the sill of the open window in case the open window falls..... do't put any part of your body out the window even when we are sitting still....don't leave your seat once the train starts moving as it may lurch and cause you to fall.....don't leave this coach under any circumstances.....listen carefully for any announcements in case of an emergency and follow those instructions carefully........etc., etc.

And, the best one of all came at Moscow. After we arrived and were allowed to stand up and detrain I walked up the platform to be next to the engine ( 2317 IIRC) and a female Smokey Bear NPS Ranger in full regalia came racing up to me and shouted ( and I mean shouted !! ) " get away from that engine, it's dangerous and could blow up and kill you ".

I am not embellishing at all. That 1 trip cured me for life and I haven't ridden since, nor will I.

No wonder their numbers have twindled and twindled and twindled.

Ross Rowland

Yeah... the rangers at Steamtown are a bit much. I’ve had similar experiences over a few different visits.

Once on a shop tour, an employee yelled at the tour guide for bringing visitors into the shop. Oh a shop tour. Can’t make it up.

Cuyahoga was a similar experience with the 765. The 765 guys were awesome of course, but railroad and park staff were terrible and made certain that I never visited again.

As far as I know, which isn't as much as I wish, the only project they're really doing anything with is the B&M 3713, if you can say they're doing anything at all at the moment. I guess they potentially did the ultrasound for the 3377, but I'm still skeptical on that.



I've been to Steamtown once; made it a whole weeklong trip for 2102's first run (Strasburg, Steamtown, RBM&N, Cass, WMSR, and B&O RR Museum) and had a relatively "meh" experience on the train ride. The ranger giving us an educational history didn't have a clue what he was talking about in steam restoration. He started with talking about the Big Boy and said only 7 survived (there are 8), then said a Big Boy can never run again because they're too large to restore, so the 7 will always be displayed around the country. He was next to me and I mentioned to him that the #4014 is owned by UP and currently runs at least once or twice a year typically. He told me that I was probably thinking of a different locomotive because it was impossible to restore one. When he talked about RDG #2124 he said that all 4 RDG T-1s that survived were currently on static display in the Eastern US. I hate to be this guy, but I quietly got his attention again and said there was one under restoration in Ohio and another that was running literally the next day in Pennsylvania. He raised an eyebrow and ignored me. He made a lot of other historical mistakes about equipment and I quit trying to talk to him at that point. When we arrived back at the roundhouse he had the audacity to pull me aside and say he didn't "appreciate me misinforming their riders about rail history and if I were to do it again, I'd be asked to leave." What? If you're going to talk about history, get it right. I can understand maybe not being 100% on smaller steam locomotives, but the Big Boy and T-1 information can be found in 5 seconds with a search on Google. I don't know what they intended on "asking me to leave" for, as I didn't break any policies and simply would have ignored them if they had told me to leave, but that pretty much sealed it for me ever going back until he 3713 (maybe) runs again. Again, I don't like to act like know-it-all because I definitely don't know everything, but the Big Boy information was especially just plain wrong. Even non-rail fans know a Big Boy runs. It's also not like I corrected him in front of everyone. Whenever he would pause to wait for the next steam engine or exhibit to pass us, that's when I'd get his attention and talk to him quietly. I could understand his frustration if I cut him off mid-presentation, but I was polite and waited until he had finished talking and I didn't make a big deal out of it.

Smbtrain that's a sad story but very believable. I would strongly urge you to write to the Superintendent ( with date and time of visit and the NPS employees name if you have it) and relate your experience.

Just maybe it will result in that out of line employee getting disciplined as he should be and make he and his fellow tour guides do a better job with the facts.

Worth the effort IMHO.

Thanks, Ross Rowland

2317 last ran in 2009 and was out of flue time, so I would assume a full tear down. It also, as I recall had an issue with the trailing truck.

On the last or next to last Steam powered excursion in 2012, there was a brief, informal discussion with then Superintendent Hagen about resolving the steamless Steamtown issue. I was a part of it, so this is my personal recollection, not hearsay.

He told us that he was going to look at bringing back 2317. The other conversants and I told him the difference between 3254 and 2317 was from a crew perspective, the difference between a beat up pick up that need plugs and nice Oldsmobile. 2317 fires and rides easy and engineers I think preferred it as well. Unfortunately most that ran it are no longer with us.

Of course we had no idea he would pass away suddenly a year later but rumors did float that the cost estimate to do the whole 1472 and resolve a trailing truck issue was over $1M and put the spraggs to that idea.

Personally, if I were running the show, I would be looking to build my visitorship and not try to compete head to head with the R&N. Keep in mind, as I said before, there are people in the park service who are indifferent to visitors-they regard themselves as Fort Knox. Now as much as some of us would like to see a regular schedule of road excursions, it's not just the absence of locomotives that is a problem, but also coaches and destinations. I made my multi-year effort to augment the visitor experience with CNJ 113.

In addition, when comparing with the R&N, one needs to remember the R&N has complete autonomy over its offerings and had no museum to support.

While I'd continue 3713 because it's already being worked on, I'd shelve attempting to get any other road engine going at this point. Instead, I'd be concentrating on a couple of small engines; such as the Berlin Mills Engine, the New Haven Trap rock engine, so there's always something MOVING-maintaining training for volunteers.

The typical visitor is happy with a short ride. We're all enthusiasts here. We'd all drop a couple of C-Notes to go on the right trip with the right engine. To family with small kids, that's not for them. They need an educational and tactile experience to keep the kiddos busy.

To give you an idea of the typical visitor, here's a few of my favorite questions offered over the years.

"Where does the key go"
"How much does it weigh"
"How fast can you get one of these engines going"
"Is this really a steam engine" (some people actually though a diesel was hiding in the tender, and I guess it's not an unreasonable thought)
"How fast can it go?"
"What does 53% under the window mean?"

Road steam IS an important aspect of Steamtown; but it's not the only one.

One other thing, with regard to the windows and the crew/rangers. Over the years I was there, we observed some stuff that made our heads spin. One fellow in order to give his tyke a better look, let the kid stick out of the window, belt level, while he held on to the kids feet. We also have seen windows drop like guillotines on rough track, so there's always the fear that somebody will get fingers chopped off.

I wouldn't be to hard on the rangers for safety exuberance; like that bald guy pitching insurance; they've seen a lot.

SMB I would follow Ross' advice. However, address it to the Super AND the Chief of Interpretation. That person was Bill Fischer, last I heard. Details, dates., etc. including the individual's name are important.

Staff are trained to avoid confrontation and this individual was clearly instigating it assuming (I'm not suggesting otherwise) your account is fairly stated. I would certainly think removal of a visitor would require management oversight and could not be effected summarily by an interpretive ranger.

As to the factual errors; I note that MOST of the rangers I worked with "read up", but as far as I know, the training is all OJT and oral instruction. At Gettysburg, to be a licensed battlefield guide one has to be trained and tested. My gut tells me 130 years of steam is just as complicated as three days in 1863.

Supe makes some good points. Yes, do follow up and write those 2 individuals about your negative experience as it might well result in the whole Ranger corp. getting better educated on the subject.

Thanks, Ross