I tried early in the HICO era ( 1966-'73) to work cooperatively with several rr museums and NRHS chapters for them to supply car host volunteers in return for donations. I found it a very difficult task dealing with the inherent in fighting, all chiefs no indians atmosphere I found and have avoided any museum involvement since other than as a donor.

I want to say thank you for all who have posted on this thread as it has caused me to change my thinking entirely on body decorations as I've come to realize that there's a lot of good folks out there who wanted to decorate their bodies and that's their privilege to do so. The fact that I find it unattractive is my problem.

From now on whenever we build a crew the only thing I'll insist upon is that if a position involves being in uniform in front of the public that any decorations be hidden by the uniform.

I apologize to anyone who was insulted by my remarks and ask for their forgiveness.

Let's all be as welcoming as possible to the youngins as we need as much new/young blood as possible.

Thank you, Ross Rowland

One cannot blame you, though most of us are without the capital to work alone, and must work collectively.

That being said, I think this has been an informative thread.

I really think this says it all and it the root cause for why you don't see too many young people helping out.
It's easy for a retiree who lives only for trains and nothing else to sneer on people who have other frivilous things to worry about (you know, work and family, little things like that). But once you get into the "everyone around here lives and breathes this place and nothing else" mindset, you won't tolerate anyone who doesn't click with that.
And then, you wonder why you can't get more than your dedicated corps of 'chosen few'. Odd, ain't it?
And it's not just RR museums, either. I recently signed on to be a tour guide for a space-related exhibit at a large museum near where I live. Having experience in the field to some degree, I thought I'd be welcomed in. Instead, I was met with a barage of comments about how I can't take multiple days off during the week to attend last-minute meetings or discussions they have for all volunteers and docents because I work a job that really doesn't allow any time off (for example, I needed management approval to override a denial for time off for jury duty last year). They wanted me to come in for an interview on a weekday the following week, which never was going to happen. I asked if they could possibly do it on a weekend for that reason. I still have the e-mail where the volunteer coordinator said that because of that request, "Maybe this isn't for you," and they never contacted me again for any follow ups or to re-schedule said interview. Never mind that said exhibit is only open for tours on the weekend. I typed a lengthy response that pretty much ended with, "bite me," but decided not to send it. That decision was made out of civility only, not any desire to do anything for them now. They would have had a very knowledgeable and enthusiastic volunteer who would have loved the gig and given them a better experience for the public than many of the people they already have. But now, they have a person who has decided they aren't worth the time and probably won't renew my membership because of this.

It's a good thread and has the potential to make us all look at matters in a new light, provided we're willing to open our eyes (as Ross just did.)

Part of the minority/female/etc. recruiting problem--as well as the effort to bring visitors who are other than what your staff mainly is--may be the self-grouping. Dollars to donuts, what's going through most of our heads when we look at volunteers are the hiring criteria at our off-track work. A lot of companies have a certain image that has grown over the years, and it's hard to break the mental "But he doesn't look like somebody who'd belong here!" that applies in one place and not the other.

PC attempts to make brochures, etc. look all-inclusive are usually fairly obvious, and I'd advise against them,. If, on the other hand, you happen to have a picture of a crew working and there's a middle-aged woman in the background doing something, or a young family of color talking to a volunteer, or someone with a disability working around the place, the subtle message comes across to others who are female, of color or disabled that "hm, they didn't mind him/her, so it might be OK for me."

"If I don't see it, it doesn't matter" applies to matters beyond tattoos. There's a fine art in knowing when it's appropriate to take a stand about some issue and when to agree to disagree. There are places not to cuss and places where some of us weld by swearing at the metal. Any kind of historic preservation attracts powerful personalities, because getting anything done takes an extremely strong and stubborn mind. The trick is not to let them get in our way.

They exist. I'm 31 and a member of the Eagles and part of multiple organizations that commonly use Robert's Rules of Order. Granted, some of them are political related but still.

As the father of two beautiful and intelligent young ladies, I know how I am attempting to recruit them to become involved in preservation and expanding their horizons. I spend time with them around a local model railroad club layout. The club has been very welcome of having my children, but especially of my girls. It's only N scale, but both my girls have a blast getting to run a train. The time spent sharing this is valuable both personally and maybe eventually in the rail preservation world...

No one has mentioned this yet, but I think it's important that we thank Ross for being willing to admit he was wrong! How many of us know people who wouldn't or couldn't do that? How many of us may have later realized--too late--that we were wrong, but even then, couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it?

That takes a big man, and my hat's off to Ross--even if I have to admit to wanting to limit art to either what you can't see in uniform, or to "traditional" things like classic Navy style stuff (anchors, mermaids--hey, what do you expect from traditionalists who like steam engines?) :-)

Being au naturale, at least in regard to ink. . .:-)

"...would or should turn down younger help when offered. "

Agreed, but no where in this thread has that been asserted, instead we went from all-encompassing charges of insidious discrimination (based on race, sex, age other non-merit factors) to charges that "progressive" politics were unwelcome, to a sense that ink was frowned upon. If I apply this paranoia to my life, I need to assume that my gym is discriminating against me because the music is almost exclusively rap. I think they need more new wave and grunge, and obviously, I should be offended at this discrimination evident in their absence.

Groups do develop "norms". That's life. There was a complaint a while back, in the early days of the internet that many groups didn't see Conrail as worthy of preservation. Mostly younger people decided to form a group that would make Conrail their focus, and by all accounts, they've enjoyed success, obtaining equipment, running trips.

What they didn't do was complain or sit in their trucks and complain or demand unconditional acceptance.

As for the twenty-somethings having no time.. it's not going to get better. Older children require more shuttling, and more money. Spouses (usually wives) can become resentful over time spent away from them, the kids or the house. By the time you are 40, you'll notice increasing demands from parents (and grandparents, if you are lucky enough to have them still around).


"Part of the minority/female/etc. recruiting problem--"

So.. who's a minority? I keep hearing there's a "minority" problem, so who does the focus need to be on? Let's quit screwing around with euphemisms. Now if in your response you include the word "Hispanic", keep in mind that while Richard Nixon invented the word to lump all Spanish speaking individuals together, Cubans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans and others are distinctly different cultures and dialects. So when you answer try not to sound like Michael Scott of "the Office".

Couple of points of view from my mind; a 41 year old been involved for 20+ years;

Tattoos I don't have any and don't care if you do but if I recently saw a gentleman (and I will use that term loosely) that had a tattoo on his neck that said "If you can read this Fxxx you!" Others have very graphic, violent scenes. So I would say as long as your visible tattoos are tasteful or can be covered up as to not offend welcome aboard. As for that gent I think I would have shown him the door if he came in for an interview. We all need to remember that our staff is 'selling' our organization. And we need to mold /hire the staff to meet the needs and likes of our customers.

Minorities...My three sons (queue music) are half Puerto Rican and I am doing my best to include them in all things railroad. But at 13, 11 and 7 there are very limited things they can do. Helping hand out gifts on an Easter Bunny train was the extent of it but they totally enjoyed it. I have taken them on some speeder trips, but even those are limited. I have lost the oldest to friends/ video games and reading but I keep him involved as much as possible.

Time...or should I say available time.... I actually have a bit more now (going thru a divorce) than I did when I was married. However that free time is used for other pursuits, such as hiking, biking and finding a new better half. Disposable income...gone; being used for those college funds now. DO you realize the cost of college now? I funded mine with a full time summer job, not possible anymore. Many others my age are in the same boat economically. We got married later, got divorced, bought that big house that is worth much less than it was 5 years ago. The list goes on.

Maybe when I retire I will have time and money but that is at least 20 years away.....hence the reason most places have people that are past retirement. They have the time.

"Can't touch a power tool until you're 18" is another kind of discrimination. Yes, there's a rationalization behind it, but that's true of ALL discrimination. Go to 1870 and ask a Southerner why blacks aren't equal. Be prepared to stay the whole afternoon, because they'll write you a book! None of it true, but they believe it like it is.

The under-18s aren't banned because of specific state law and legal precedent. They're banned because "somebody heard" and "it seems like" and "Well that's just what everyone does." They presume there must be a legal reason to bar under-18s, but these are the same people who believe outlandish wives tale about how unfair the legal system is, but have never read a court decision in their whole lives. If you ask them to quote the specific statute or case law that obliges them to limit under-18s, they'd say "what do statues have to do with it?"

That's what discrimination is. Prejudice. It's exactly on-topic to this thread because it is the root of how we treat our young blood. It's back to do not care, because the prejudice doesn't affect me / works in my favor. "Hey, I don't have a problem with how we treat under-18s, I'm over 18! LOL!"


OK that is cheesing me off. The Race To The Lock. This is a complete failure of moderation. Now the whole damn forum is trained to "game the moderation" when they should be posting intelligently. This is why threads should never be locked but cleaned up instead.


No, Ross believes what he says, while Superheater is being extreme to the point of trolling. Ross stands behind what he says, intending it to be affected by and affect his reputation. Superheater would be appalled to be associated with his own words. No, these opinions are NOT equal in value.

We here have a failure of anonymity. Superheater is wrong, knows he's wrong, knows he's offensive and is only saying this stuff because he can hide behind the skirts of anonymity. Anonymous posting is fine, but needs to meet the same standard if not a slightly higher one. I'm not saying Trainlawyer needs to go, this is not a "baby out with the bathwater" problem, we don't need to treat all anonymous accounts equal. Superheater has repeatedly displayed extreme inappropriateness and needs to be perma-banned. It's time.

Oh, how true that is. Age discrimination for youth is one of the few groups you can not only get away with discriminating against , you're often encouraged to do so. So many things are denied young people even after they become legal adults (ever see a 19-year-old try to buy a beer? How about rent a car? They can be drafted and die in combat but they can't buy the same handgun they might have to shoot with in combat, 2nd ammedment be darned).
the fact is a teenager today is likely far more an adult than anyone I knew at that age when I was a teen!
I should have walked out of the NRHS chapter I was a member of about the time I was around 19. They accepted me as a 14-year-old (in contrast to existing NRHS rules at the time) and as soon as the NRHS changed their national rules to allow people of much younger ages, my own chapter voted to cap the ages at 18! I should have told them to bite me and walked out. But I had a few close pals in that group at the time (one of whom I consider one of my oldest friends today) and they were the only game in town (keep in mind, NRHS equalled excursions and steam back then in that pre-internet age).
So, here we are, a little over 20 years later and that chapter hardly ever meets anymore, there's maybe 4-5 members who do anything and the old crumbling station they have could fall right over if someone bigger than a child leans on it. As far as I know, I'm the last kid who ever joined up with them, they prevented anyone from coming after me. And when they implode, it'll be partially for that reason.
I won't shed many tears when it happens.

Even in the broad realm of the "railroad hobby" there is a lot of competition. Discriminate against younger members, and they might find something more productive to do with their time.

The time to think about your organization's succession plans is now, not when most of your volunteers are in their 70s and can't work like you used to.

Find a way to engage younger volunteers, or be prepared to slowly die off and plan accordingly.

The one museum I've visited frequently and am continually amazed at the number of younger volunteers in all aspects of the operation is IRM. It seems like very department has a decent age group spread from people in their 20s 30s and on up. They've figured it out, why hasn't your group?

We here have a failure of anonymity. Superheater is wrong, knows he's wrong, knows he's offensive and is only saying this stuff because he can hide behind the skirts of anonymity.

Wrong? Offensive? By whose standard? Man, people who complain about groups enforcing arbitrary ideological standards seem awfully eager to enforce their own arbitrary ideological standards. Believe it or not, I find your posts offensive, often lacking in brevity and discretion, even when I agree with the conclusion, so a "real name" is no guarantee of freedom from insult.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=acti ... 66&bih=664

My identity is my my property.

But of course, I'm pseudonymous, not anonymous. Please consult Merriam and Webster.

Even there, there's at least a dozen posters on this board who know me by the name on my driver's license.

It takes very little to get past the nom de plume. I was going to show my face to Ross on Saturday, despite years of fierce debate, for the sole reason that his remarks on behalf of Project 113, were thoughtful, engaging, gracious and appropriate in length.

I wish you could have been there.

jca-614's reference to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc in the Denver Union Station thread fits in this discussion. Although not intended as such, it's a quick, but good description of why we volunteer and of the kind of environment we need to nurture if we want others - of all ages - to volunteer as well.

The Truth here is

NO ONE wants to see anyone get hurt, however a Minor is an other issue, thanks to the legal system, A Lawyer would chew up and spit out what little monies these organizations have,

I even have Issue with Parental Signed Waivers - because face it Little (Juan,Joey or Suzzie) gets impaled by a freak cutting disk accident it will be a long and expensive process, "thank the lawyers for that"

I don't care if its the law or not, because even if its ok, a lawyer and local media will make a mountain out of it and ruin any good reputation made with your locals and state officials

I would incist on a parental waiver signed on each day and each visit just to remind those that this is not your kids school gym/playground