I'm looking for some advice on how to get stencils cut so that we can reletter the historic Nevada Northern equipment we have painted and plan to paint. Basically we need the usual variety of railroad roman lettering in various sizes. I figure there has to be an easier way than cutting the stencils by hand. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I figure there are probably a lot of folks here who have already done this sort of thing and can get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks in advance.

John West

Some China Pix
jbwest@att.net

If you have one of those "signs & banners" shops in your neighborhood they may be able to produce the stencil for you. I had some ordinary signs and a banner made for a family function coming-up this summer and noticed that they had "stencil cutting" listed on their price list sign as another service they provide. -- Ray

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint. Basically we need
> the usual variety of railroad roman
> lettering in various sizes. I figure there
> has to be an easier way than cutting the
> stencils by hand. Rather than reinvent the
> wheel, I figure there are probably a lot of
> folks here who have already done this sort
> of thing and can get me pointed in the right
> direction. Thanks in advance.

> John West


raymondreter@aol.com

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint. Basically we need
> the usual variety of railroad roman
> lettering in various sizes. I figure there
> has to be an easier way than cutting the
> stencils by hand. Rather than reinvent the
> wheel, I figure there are probably a lot of
> folks here who have already done this sort
> of thing and can get me pointed in the right
> direction. Thanks in advance.

> John West
in the days when cars were lettered routinely by shop personnel, were they stenciled in the usual way with the stencil affixed and paint applied directly or by the stencil being used to provide a pencil line for later hand lettering or totally freehand?


davidwoodbury@adelphia.net

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint. Basically we need
> the usual variety of railroad roman
> lettering in various sizes. I figure there
> has to be an easier way than cutting the
> stencils by hand. Rather than reinvent the
> wheel, I figure there are probably a lot of
> folks here who have already done this sort
> of thing and can get me pointed in the right
> direction. Thanks in advance.

I hope that you people have photographed and measured the letter prior to the paint job. Measure both the size and placement of the lettering. Many museums have stories of private caboose owners or private horse-drawn carrage owners who call up after having removed all paint and ask for what color, lettering, or stripping to apply.

Some good sources for advice would be the sites that have done significant amounts of work.

Brian Norden

In my experience in the rail industry, freight cars were lettered in the "conventional" way, with the stencil paint being applied through the stencil over the body color. Perhaps some passenger cars used what I call "reverse" stencils. There are problably some other readers who know a whole lot more about this than I do.

Some China Pix
jbwest@att.net

We created a pretty thorough photographic record prior to working on the first car. What we forgot to do was take as many measurements as we should have, but since we've only painted the first car, there are some others to help us correct that mistake. The old paint was so badly deteriorated that much of the lettering was difficult to read or just gone. We're even having to guess at some of the car numbers, and assume dimensions and weights from the the same from car to car. Old photographs will also be a resource. An interesting side issue is, not surprisingly, there were some changes in the lettering over the years, so we need to try to be at least consistent for one point in time. As info I relied a great deal on advice from Jerry Sahd who is one of the freight car painting gurus for the Friends of the C&TS....amoung other things we used a lot of linseed oil before painting, and on the next car we will use even more linseed oil. The first car was done with brushes because the spray gun was bad order, and I would not use brushes again. It will have to get a third coat sprayed on before being finished. If anyone has any advice regarding painting old wooden cars, we can use all the advice we can get.....and we have a lot of cars to go. Or even better, come enjoy the clear air at 6,000 feet and a pretty incredible operating museum.


jbwest@att.net

Well, I wouldn't spray them - brushes and rollers provide the historically appropriate texture to the finish. Prime and paint the siding before installation on all backs, sides and ends as well as the fronts. Spraying is fast but not accurate and can leave varied depths of coverage in inexperienced hands.

If you can't find a sign guru who can cut stencils in remote Nevada, I can recommend Doug Aho at Aho and Barbat High Tech Signage in Marietta, GA. If you zap him a digital photo and height and width measurements he can probably cut and send a stencil to you. Don't have his email handy, try google.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Well, I wouldn't spray them - brushes and
> rollers provide the historically appropriate
> texture to the finish.

I would just point out.....

From the book "Painting of Railway Equipment" by B.E. Miller, Master Painter, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railway (ca. 1924)

Part 3, Section 17, Paragraph 71

"The painting of freight cars is usually done with brushes, the 4 1/2- or 5-inch flat bristle wall brush being generally used. If the painting is done outdoors, an air brush or paint sprayer will give good results, especially if the work is done in an area set aside for the purpose, with ample room between the cars. The manner of doing this work is illustrated in Fig. 11, in which 'a' is the portable tank containing paint, 'b' is the hose carrying air and paint, and 'c' is the spraying device. The spraying device shown in Fig. 10 may be preferred in places where room is limited, with narrow space between tracks and no chance to separate the cars. The spraying process saves labor, but uses more material than the brush method, so that the actual cost of the two methods is about the same. The brush applies the paint more evenly, except perhaps where a flat surface is to [be] treated, and the sprayer is valuable principally as a saver of time and labor. After the surface has been sprayed, it should be looked over carefully and such parts as have been missed or over-supplied with paint may be touched up or wiped with a brush. This operation is quickly done, with little expense, and will be found to pay for itself."

Paragraphs 72, 73, and 74 cover the fabrication and use of stencils -- with no mention of historically *IN*appropriate vinyl, laser-cuting, computer generated files, etc. ;-)

sc 'doc' lewis

Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

> I would just point out.....

> From the book "Painting of Railway
> Equipment" by B.E. Miller, Master
> Painter, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western
> Railway (ca. 1924)

> Part 3, Section 17, Paragraph 71

> "The painting of freight cars is
> usually done with brushes, the 4 1/2- or
> 5-inch flat bristle wall brush being
> generally used. If the painting is done
> outdoors, an air brush or paint sprayer will
> give good results, especially if the work is
> done in an area set aside for the purpose,
> with ample room between the cars. The manner
> of doing this work is illustrated in Fig.
> 11, in which 'a' is the portable tank
> containing paint, 'b' is the hose carrying
> air and paint, and 'c' is the spraying
> device. The spraying device shown in Fig. 10
> may be preferred in places where room is
> limited, with narrow space between tracks
> and no chance to separate the cars. The
> spraying process saves labor, but uses more
> material than the brush method, so that the
> actual cost of the two methods is about the
> same. The brush applies the paint more
> evenly, except perhaps where a flat surface
> is to [be] treated, and the sprayer is
> valuable principally as a saver of time and
> labor. After the surface has been sprayed,
> it should be looked over carefully and such
> parts as have been missed or over-supplied
> with paint may be touched up or wiped with a
> brush. This operation is quickly done, with
> little expense, and will be found to pay for
> itself."

> Paragraphs 72, 73, and 74 cover the
> fabrication and use of stencils -- with no
> mention of historically *IN*appropriate
> vinyl, laser-cuting, computer generated
> files, etc. ;-)

> sc 'doc' lewis

The 1924 descriptio of the painting process would carry over until the 1940s. What he didn't mention wss that you were also painting the neighbors roofs, curtains at open windows and the
top surfaces of any nearby automobiles. We used to
laugh about being able to tell which Saturday nite shoppers worked at the "shops" by the paint
on their cars. Especially when we went thru a period where box and coal cars were painted the same red color.
As for the stencils. We had a machine to cut the small numbers. I believe it would go up to 3". The
larger numbers were cut by hand in the heavy treated manila stencil material with bars left in to support the inside of letters until wire braces could be installed and taped in.After which the bars were cut out.
The Tinners made cups to cover the rivet rivet heads so the stencil could lay flat against the side of the car. These were also taped in to the stencil paper.
The stencil "paste", a white lead and oil mixture,
was applied with a Stencil Brush. A brush, usually round, that had short stiff bristles. In
later years this was replaced by a special spray gun that would handle the heavy stencil paint. This became especially important when we started using the reflective stencilling material in the lettering and in those little round dots down the car sides that have saved many a motorist from drivivng into the side of a moving train. The
use of the reflective material started in the late 50s or early 60s, so it might not be right for your restoration.
The precut vinyl stencil transfers we used last
year on the BN caboose at the local museum are a far cry from what was done back in the 50s and 60s when we were building new cabooses, and if you are working on NG cars, I'm not sure the reflective material was ever used on them.
Jim



rrfanjim@charter.net

John,

Try this link.

The methods are not historically accurate, but if you have some good "before" paictures, I think she can help.

Steve

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint. Basically we need
> the usual variety of railroad roman
> lettering in various sizes. I figure there
> has to be an easier way than cutting the
> stencils by hand. Rather than reinvent the
> wheel, I figure there are probably a lot of
> folks here who have already done this sort
> of thing and can get me pointed in the right
> direction. Thanks in advance.

> John West


Miracle Railroad Products
szuidervee@aol.com

John,

as one who has a lot of experience lettering historic freight cars the best aproach in being accurate is to trace the existing lettering, then get it entered in a cad program. from there it can be used to make vinle letteres, or stencils, or pounce patterns, the latter being prefered for weathered wooden frieght cars to get the pattern applied to the wood, then hand filled in. the problem with going to a local sign shop and having them cut vynil from a stock font is that 9 times out of ten there "modern fonts do not match even close. Ben coffman railfont has a railroad roman that is appropriate for some uses but does not stand up against what the railroad used. Remember most railrads had art departments whose sole mission was to come up with the companys art and lettering. most artists applied there own personal flare to a particular font design to get there desired result. a clasic case of this can be seen at Steamtown on a couple of pensy boxcars, where after an associate supplied them with the correct information, they had all the dimensional data done from a commercial font. it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Al P.
RMNE car & art dept.

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint. Basically we need
> the usual variety of railroad roman
> lettering in various sizes. I figure there
> has to be an easier way than cutting the
> stencils by hand. Rather than reinvent the
> wheel, I figure there are probably a lot of
> folks here who have already done this sort
> of thing and can get me pointed in the right
> direction. Thanks in advance.

> John West

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint. Basically we need
> the usual variety of railroad roman
> lettering in various sizes.

Well John, A lot of good advice in the below posts, but I thought I would add my two cents worth. First, the "usual variety" of Railroad Roman is a myth. Maybe in the modeling world, but in real life the basic Roman was almost always stretched, compressed (differing aspect) and most usually every company customized the font in at least one or two letters to make theirs unique. This might take the form of differing serifs, a long tail on an R or other modification.

Photos are a great help. And there are a lot of examples and company drawings to be found in the various research facilities like the Pullman Library at IRM. Companies often furnished the standard drawings of their fonts to Pullman to be applied to the order, and these were incorporated into the builders specification. Regrettably probably nothing there to help you on the NN.

Passenger cars got more care and I have seen photos at the Pullman plant where there was a team of painters apparently filling in all the bars and drop outs after elaborate pinstriping and designs were stencilled, to make all designs continuous as though they were completely handpainted.

Freight cars may have been stenciled by brush, or using a small air gun such as seen on the GN. In the days when image was important this stencil was usually retouched by hand to fill in any areas blocked out by the structure of the stencil.

And many cars were entirely painted and numbered by hand - there is good evidence of this.

At our Museum we generally avoid use of pre cut vinyl transfers and use of stencils on old wood cars has proved unsatisfactory (on anything except a very smooth surface). So we draw the font in cadd, adjust the aspect of height to width, customize any characters, print it out full size on a plotter, often several sheets, hand cut the stencil, place it on the car, trace the outline, and hand paint, usually with a small brush. A lot of work requiring some patience, but the results are stunning. Be sure to use a high quality lettering enamel that will atand up over time, such as ONE SHOT.

As a rule of thumb, all lettering 4 inch and larger was solid and showed no sign of stencil bars or drop outs (even on freight cars). Whether they were done by hand or touched up, the resulting effect was the same. Three inch could go either way. Two inch and smaller characters were usually stenciled and left that way. Fonts were often simplified or used standard punches for the smaller data and notes.

On our Museum pieces with irregular surfaces, we have had pretty good luck using a stencil pattern and a rubber stamp or pad printing technique. A pad of closed cell foam with only a very small amount of paint is patted over the stencil. This gets into most of any surface roughness short of crevices approaching the size of the Grand Canyon. More than one application of paint may be needed, but keep the pad fairly dry or excess paint will squeeze out and bleed under the stencil. Stencil brushes have not worked well for us.

A lot of work, but just as clothes make the man, attention to the lettering makes the restoration.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

Here is a link to a pic I shared with Ted Culotta on his Steam Feight Car site. Shows many cars being lettered for Texaco in their shops, teams of men and brushes at work! I hope this works as I never seem to get it right with pics.

Bob


Freight Car Lettering

68trolley@comcast.net

> I'm looking for some advice on how to get
> stencils cut so that we can reletter the
> historic Nevada Northern equipment we have
> painted and plan to paint.

As said, the actual cutting process is something any custom sign company can do.

As for giving them the right lettering to work from, you may find what you need right on your computer. There are also a bunch of free fonts available at various web sites.

If the font you choose is close, but not perfect, you can modify it in a regular graphics package (see below). If you really want to get it perfect, you can alter the actual TrueType or PostScript font in font authoring software and create a "new" font that can be reused again and again.

Finally, I assume you've searched for the original stencils? Given the nature of most railroad packrats, they may well be around somewhere.

JAC

Thanks for all the input. I particulary was interested in the comments about brush versus spraying...that was a debate we had ourselves. For us spraying will probably win because manpower is what is in short supply in Ely, and we have a bunch of cars to paint. With regard to the fonts, we have them pretty well figured out on the computer. Based on some experience stencilling C&TS cars during work sessions there, my plan is to use a stiff stencilling brush

The specifically challenge has been getting the stencils cut. Hopefull, based on the suggestions here, I can find a local sign shop who can cut stencils for me, or we'll end up doing it the historically correct way and cut them by hand. I want to do it on heavy enough material that the results are reusable.

Since when Kennecott walked away from the NN they basically left everything behind including an incredible supply of spare parts I was surprised that one of the things that didn't get left behind in the paint shop was the stencils. But so far nobody has found them.

John

jbwest@att.net