Much has been said on this board (and others) about Steamtown's shortcoming's. I think some of the criticism is deserved: The lack of advertising (supposedly not permitted for a national park) is ludicrous. The website is hard to navigate. There are far too many days (especially since #26 has gone down) without active steam at steamtown. I'm a politically moderate, fiscal conservative, so you'd be "preaching to the choir" about the evils of government waste.

I'm undecided on other issues: 1361 is a disaster. Then again, it was a disaster before Steamtown ever laid a wrench on it. Rangers in Smoky-Bear hats look out of place on excursion trains. Then again, after an anarchic Steamtown excursion with #261 in winter '95 or '96 with less authority figures, maybe they're not so bad after all.

One complaint, I simply see differently than others here. One doesn't need "inside info" to realize that there IS friction between the "preservationists" and "excursionists" (for lack of better term. Just take the shop tour a few times, you'll hear signs of it loud and clear. Then again, I can also surmise that GOOD things have come out of this friction! Steamtown runs AUTHENTIC steam-era coaches, AUTHENTICALLY painted, at AUTHENTIC (well, close to) steam era speeds. NO open air cars, NO rainbow consists, NO 1950's streamliners, NO backup tenders, WORKING steam heat! Steamtown, better than any other organization I know (though I won't have been on OC till Trainfest this year), RECREATES mainline steam railroading! Love them or hate them, they're about all we've got in this regard. The New Jersey 614 rambles years ago? Wonderful, fun experience, but NJT coaches don't recreate steam railroading. I would live at Strasburg if I could, but they're a shortline. Union Pacific? For a very small number of public trips they might have some advantages . . . I've never been there.

Photo runbys? They'd be begging for lawsuits. The previously mentioned 261 winter excursion had passengers piling off the train at an unscheduled stop, unknown to the train crew, thinking it was a runby. Oh, yeah, nothing to get sued over there.

Steamtown is unique. Its potential isn't fully realized, I agree. But some of the "solutions" I hear about here are worse than the problem.

Thanks for listening to my rant,

JPS

ironandsteam@msn.com

! Steamtown, better than any other
> organization I know (though I won't have
> been on OC till Trainfest this year),
> RECREATES mainline steam railroading!

I was just ready to do a rebutal until I read between the parthesis. Your in for a treat at OC
--- and please, I'm not saying or emplying (so please don't put words in my mouth) against Steamtown here, just saying OC also does an excellent job of giving you that feel of what steam was once like.

Hope to see you in July JPS ---

TJG



tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> The previously mentioned 261
> winter excursion had passengers piling off
> the train at an unscheduled stop, unknown to
> the train crew, thinking it was a runby.

I was one of those folks. EVERYONE other than the loco crew thought it was. And it was great location! lol

Your thoughtful post is hardly a rant. Instead, it is a reasoned assessment of SNHS based on your wide range of experiences and free of ad homenim attacks that frequently mark (and detract from) many SNHS comments. Your RyPN colleagues would do well to use this as an example of well-crafted effective communication.

I have a thought or three that spring off of one of your comments....

> Steamtown, better than any other
> organization I know (though I won't have
> been on OC till Trainfest this year),
> RECREATES mainline steam railroading! Love
> them or hate them, they're about all we've
> got in this regard.

(1.) We must understand the vagaries that federal service sometimes imposes on civil servants and strategically support the SNHS staff in its endeavors.

(2.) I am confident none, not nary a one, of the SNHS staff intends to cause harm. They accept the salaries and the bureaucratic headaches because they truly care about what they do. There are just honest differences about policy and strategic direction. And most strategic policies (like budget issues) are NOT made in Scranton.

(3.) Only if and when SNHS ever gets something close to adequate funding can effective debates occur concerning the minutae of what organization ought to do with regards to this car or that particular locomotive. First and foremost, SNHS needs basic support from us. I go back to my mantra -- If you haven't written..........


amiller@rtms-movietrains.com

> Steamtown runs AUTHENTIC steam-era coaches,
> AUTHENTICALLY painted, at AUTHENTIC (well,
> close to) steam era speeds.

I would like to see an AUTHENTIC DINING CAR in the train then, so the AUTHENTIC PASSENGERS wouldn't have to AUTHENTICALLY STARVE during an unscheduled, but AUTHENTIC six hour delay.

> NO rainbow consists,

CN or CP engines pulling DL&W and CNJ coaches with a red "railfan tours" car & LV office car...??????

> NO 1950's streamliners.

611 pulling a matching red train may have been a 50's streamliner, but it was still steam era.

> NO backup tenders.

Would save a water-stop or two. But OK, can we get Tobyhanna and (especially) East Stroudsburg to find a few more lengths of fire-hose then...?
How about an AUTHENTIC WATER TANK so it doesn't have to take a half hour to top off a tender.

> WORKING steam heat!

611 used that, up until the train was H-E-P equipped in '92.

> Photo runbys? They'd be begging for lawsuits.

Well, then let's just park 'em, and save all that money. Soon, virtual reality is all we'll have. There will be no actual reality, because someone might stub their toe and speed-dial their lawyer on the cel-phone. When is this country going to wake up?

> The previously mentioned 261
> winter excursion had passengers piling off
> the train at an unscheduled stop, unknown to
> the train crew, thinking it was a runby. Oh,
> yeah, nothing to get sued over there.

I was not there, but it sounds like the train was under-staffed. Passengers should be entering and exiting the train ONLY where there is a member of the train-crew stationed to assist. Passengers should not be opening side-doors or traps. The train crew / car-hosts should be in control of this. The photo-runby site should be pre-planned and selected for good walking conditions to allow those passengers wanting to participate, to do so safely and to get back a safe distance from the track. This can be safely accomplished even with a crowd of over 500, in about a half-hour (about the amount of time wasted while NOT taking water at East Stroudsburg, last October).

> Steamtown is unique. Its potential isn't
> fully realized, I agree.

I agree, too. I want to see the whole idea succeed. It's been nearly 10 years since the "grand opening".
Let's get on with it.

> Thanks for listening to my rant,
> JPS

...and my suggestions. SG

I will use the analogy of cooking. You can have all of the best ingredients available and a spacious well equipped kitchen. In spite of this, unless you have a recipe and then follow the recipe you might never cook anything that is fit for human consumption.

This is what has been going on at Steamtown. They have a location near large populations, an available right of way that is a civil engineering wonder, a lot of people who want to make it work, a decent shop, and some very nice locomotives and rolling stock. So what is the problem? The ingredients are there but you first must have the recipe in your possession and then follow said recipe. We, the taxpayers, need to find the person with the recipe and get him/her to come to Steamtown and put all of the ingredients to good use. This means someone from outside needs to come in and be in charge. Otherwise what we will end up with is some bureaucrat who has worked their way through the federal ranks to come in and waste more of our money. I don't have the recipe, I wish I did, but I do know that the folks in charge don't have it either.

There is a lot Steamtown could be given the proper opportunity. Every problem is an opportunity in disguise.

Tom Gears

The train crew DID think it was a runby! The thought was "if we're stopped, it MUST be a runby". We were all detrained, set up (great looking shot too) and then the word came that it wasn't a runby stop and we all reluctantly got back on. We found out later that it was SOOOOOO cold that coal was freezing in the tender.

> We, the taxpayers, need to find the person
> with the recipe and get him/her to come to
> Steamtown and put all of the ingredients to
> good use.

You the taxpayers don't have a say. Several years ago, some loud critic visited. Everybody was told make this person happy. All the stops were pulled. They put on grand shows for politicians and the like.

Try getting a cabride -better not be just a taxpayer. When the 353 goes out on excursions-"digniteries" will be on board in the air with little sanwiches. You'll be in the cars with the windows that you aren't supposed to open and whatever you brought in your cooler.

This means someone from outside
> needs to come in and be in charge.

That would be an admitting failure and the truth. With the NPS and the feds, gentlemen admitting failure is not an option.

> Otherwise
> what we will end up with is some bureaucrat
> who has worked their way through the federal
> ranks to come in and waste more of our
> money.

Thats it right there. Unfortunately, it isn't going to change. Thats the reality. Too much other stuff going on for the feds to care.

I don't have the recipe, I wish I
> did, but I do know that the folks in charge
> don't have it either.

Its bad when you think you are doing fine. They think the comprehensive interpretitive plan is wonderful-don't understand its about a building, not a fancy blueprint.

> There is a lot Steamtown could be given the
> proper opportunity. Every problem is an
> opportunity in disguise.

Tom, every problem is an opportunity to do a report on why it can't be fixed in the NPS.

Hate to be a downer but after a while you realize you head is softer than a brick wall.



voxverum@yahoo.com

>Steamtown runs AUTHENTIC steam-era coaches, >AUTHENTICALLY painted, at AUTHENTIC (well, close >to) steam era speeds. NO open air cars, NO >rainbow consists, NO 1950's streamliners

The current yard shuttle, now called the "Pullman Experience", is a great example of how Steamtown can get everything 80% right. Passengers sit in the "Good Vibrations", which began life as a LIRR coach, built in the mid-50's after the PRR turned the LIRR over to the state of New York. It was stripped in the early 90's and now is fitted with a garish carpet and family room sofas and chairs.
Is the general public told this? This car seems to be totally out of place with Steamtown's mission. Here was an opportunity to use an AUTHENTIC pullman car (sleeper, lounge, parlor, etc.) and tell the story of Pullman service and its role in black history. At least they get to walk through a business car.

Ouch! Honestly, I had no idea Good Vibrations was A) From the 1950's and B)Was so unauthentic inside. I agree 100% with your comments. Honestly, other than the water gap trips last fall, I had never seen the car on any Steamtown excursions, so it wasn't really included in my "authenticity" manifesto :)


ironandsteam@msn.com

The "Good Vibrations" used to be a regular on NYS&W 142 excursions. It is privately owned. Interestingly, it and the LV 343 are the only privately owned cars on the property and used on Steamtown trips. I have never been able to find out what kind of financial arrangements exist between the owners and Steamtown.

Everybody screams about everything being 100% authentic. I personally don't care if it's a rainbow consist. You can't really see the train from the inside anyway. Maybe you'll see a few cars ahead when you go around curves. It's all crying about pretty pictures (which don't pay the bills). So what. You have coaches from the United States and a locomotive from Canada pulling the train. Both look great. I was very impressed the first time I went to Steamtown. That's why I continue to go every year, but that's not the point. We were talking about the Authentic experience. If you want the authentic experience, why not just invent the time machine and go back in time. Just like Steamtown's authentic experience, it's not going to happen. We are running steam locomotives in the world of modern railroading. It's out of place. No matter how hard you try, it just won't look the same as it did in those "pretty pictures."

Steps off soapbox.

jtjjtb@aol.com

I for one don't expect perfection. I have enjoyed a lot of trips to the UK where some compromises are made. But the point is they tell you what is a recreation and what is accurate. Essentially you have someone's private car done in the 1990's being sold as the Pullman experience and it's not! By all means let's have different equipment and multiple paint schemes and roadnames. But let people know what is accurate, what is recreation and what is pure whimsy!

> Everybody screams about everything being
> 100% authentic. I personally don't care if
> it's a rainbow consist. You can't really see
> the train from the inside anyway. Maybe
> you'll see a few cars ahead when you go
> around curves. It's all crying about pretty
> pictures (which don't pay the bills). So
> what. You have coaches from the United
> States and a locomotive from Canada pulling
> the train. Both look great. I was very
> impressed the first time I went to
> Steamtown. That's why I continue to go every
> year, but that's not the point. We were
> talking about the Authentic experience. If
> you want the authentic experience, why not
> just invent the time machine and go back in
> time. Just like Steamtown's authentic
> experience, it's not going to happen. We are
> running steam locomotives in the world of
> modern railroading. It's out of place. No
> matter how hard you try, it just won't look
> the same as it did in those "pretty
> pictures."

> Steps on soapbox.

Its the Steamtown bureacrats that want authentic.

They'll spend years on a "historic report" to find out how many types of paint were on something and then ignore the fact the thing is 3/4 and counting rust. Yep, preserve the history of the paint while more of what its on rusted away.

A late volunteer, Irv Biehl, used to get yelled at because he'd try to paint something without ensuring it was a perfect match.



voxverum@yahoo.com

I'm probably one of rather few people here who've never taken a picture of a train IN MY LIFE! :) Nothing wrong with those that do, but my vision of "authenticity" applied mainly to those riding the train. Riding in a streamliner is not a "typical" steam experience (though, as Mr. Gilbert pointed out, it was not unheard of), and riding in an hep transit coach isn't even close, really.

We could start a thread that would probably overload the site debating what "authenticity" really is, and how, barring the mentioned time machine, to best achieve it. What's more important? Authentic coaches from steam era (Steamtown), consist native to railroad (East Broad Top), authentic speeds (Iron Horse Rambles), authentic scenery (numerous lines), the ability to record this authenticity electronically (photo runbys)?

It's a good point that we're not going to be 100% authentic, but "more is better," right? At Steamtown, a 1920's engine pulling 1920's open-window coaches pulls into the station and picks up passengers bound for scenery that hasn't changed much in a long time. It's the same feeling people get from a meal at an historic restaurant, or a drink at an old bar. Pictures, indeed, don't pay the bills, but atmosphere certainly sells. I think Steamtown has a very nice time machine.

JPS



ironandsteam@msn.com