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| Re: Bel Del https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10192 |
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| Author: | Steamtown Observer [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bel Del |
Mr. Sam, This is about the 4th thread that has appeared here about the 142 on the Bel-Del. Every one of them has essentially said the same thing: this ride has great potential, but enough things have been ignored or done wrong to give the overall operation a bad name. I agree with Ed, they will not be back last year. I happen to live in the area and have watched it every weekend and ridden twice. First off, the ridership numbers are a lot lower than claimed. I would guess they are getting 250-300 riders per day. There is a problem with the volunteers on the ground and on the train. I assume they are having a hard time getting volunteers (the NYS&WT&HS has most of its members in the northeastern corner of NJ - 1 1/2 hours away). Some of the problems are a "frat boy" mentality. Running a golf cart into the side of the train for example. The equipment the passengers ride in is poor. The LIRR cars are dirty and hot - they were never designed to be non-air conditioned. The general public cannot see out of the dirty and scratched windows. It is obvious no one is maintaining the RDC any more. I rode the car on a special from Scranton to Pocono Summit over ten years ago and that car looked like it had just come from the Budd plant - what a great restoration. Now, it reminds me of the final days of Penn Central. This does effect everyone in the northeast who is trying to run or restore steam because many members of the general public are being turned off to future rides on other lines. |
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| Author: | Ed Kelley [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bel Del/142 storage/whistlesetc |
Yes the ride DOES have great potential; given better passenger equipment, perhaps a longer ride, and as someone said a cutting of brush which would really improve the ride. And for the general public and those curious some narraration would be neat too. It is a great place for a tourist railroad if you see the area. I am not sure how long the track runs along the river or anything but if the ride was maybe 1:15 long it would make a big difference. I was pleasantly surprised to find Phillipsburg a pretty neat old town with a lot of modern conveniences nearby; a Target where we got some film, etc. We also passed some sort of rail mini museum heading out of down towards the mini RR but we didn't get to go in. As to a question about storage, I was told that they keep the trains when they aren't in use at a quarry near Carpentersville. I am not sure if the storage is covered. #142 was fairly dirty but you can usually blame that to the coal. Another question I was curious about was the whistle. I didn't get a good enough look at it and didn't hear too much of it. I zoomed in on a digital photograph and showed a few people. One person thought it was a 3-chime step top due to the size of the openings. I think Steamlocomotive.info has a video of #142, I will check the whistle there. If I remember it sounded more like a 5-chime. It didn't look like a Tangshan whistle like those sold on Multipower International. If Phillipsburg is interested, it might even be neat to put a larger station or something on the line; construct something. The old station appeared to be a kayak store or something. As for photos, I heard if you walk a bit down the track you can get a good shot. I didn't know this then. The guy told us to "look for where the tracks cross the road and go there for a shot", only it never did cross all but a dirt driveway to a house. I wonder if those bridges the line runs over have sidewalks...that would be interesting. It would be great to have #142 back on the Hoboken-Port Jervis line for excursions; even though there is no #614 to doublehead with. There isn't exactly a chance of it coming to work the Upper Hudson line out of Harmon...although I heard that NKP #765 had done this in the early 80s? Oh and as for the golf cart thing; I did notice someone cruising around in one up the road to the ticket booth. It's pretty neat how you can hear the #142's whistle but when you look for the station you don't realize it is below you! Thanks, Ed Kelley GTNGRR@aol.com |
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| Author: | Rob Davis [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | station and potential |
> The old > station appeared to be a kayak store or > something. Ed, The old PRR building was torn down a few years back and replaced by the similar strucutre that holds the kayak shop. Yes, the potential is huge. As I have said all along, P'burg is the best choice if NJ ever builds a rr museum. In Easton, Pa across the river you have the fine canal and transportation museum, canal boat ride and the Crayola experience. 12 miles west is the Bethlehem Steel mill (and whatever it becomes) and a budding transportation museum just past that in Allentown. The spot where the #142 departs from, at the canal arch, is one of the most historic acres in all of transportation. Rob trains@robertjohndavis.com |
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| Author: | steven Torrico [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: station and potential |
> Ed, > The old PRR building was torn down a few > years back and replaced by the similar > strucutre that holds the kayak shop. > Yes, the potential is huge. As I have said > all along, P'burg is the best choice if NJ > ever builds a rr museum. > In Easton, Pa across the river you have the > fine canal and transportation museum, canal > boat ride and the Crayola experience. 12 > miles west is the Bethlehem Steel mill (and > whatever it becomes) and a budding > transportation museum just past that in > Allentown. > The spot where the #142 departs from, at the > canal arch, is one of the most historic > acres in all of transportation. > Rob I would think that with the "insurance" problems (cost) all tourist railroads have to deal with and during a time when many operations have shut down, I say many kudos should go to Kean Burenga and the folks at Black River & Western for having the passion and desire to start a new train excursion. Remember, not many of the "top" tourist railroads started 100% with feet running as they hit the ground during the thier first few years. Most operations have taken years to develop and reach peak performance levels. Steven edrailco@aol.com |
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| Author: | Rod Whitehead [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bel Del |
it's guys like this that make it hard to like, let alone cater to railfans. > Mr. Sam, > This is about the 4th thread that has > appeared here about the 142 on the Bel-Del. > Every one of them has essentially said the > same thing: this ride has great potential, > but enough things have been ignored or done > wrong to give the overall operation a bad > name. I agree with Ed, they will not be back > last year. I happen to live in the area and > have watched it every weekend and ridden > twice. First off, the ridership numbers are > a lot lower than claimed. I would guess they > are getting 250-300 riders per day. There is > a problem with the volunteers on the ground > and on the train. I assume they are having a > hard time getting volunteers (the > NYS&WT&HS has most of its members in > the northeastern corner of NJ - 1 1/2 hours > away). Some of the problems are a "frat > boy" mentality. Running a golf cart > into the side of the train for example. The > equipment the passengers ride in is poor. > The LIRR cars are dirty and hot - they were > never designed to be non-air conditioned. > The general public cannot see out of the > dirty and scratched windows. It is obvious > no one is maintaining the RDC any more. I > rode the car on a special from Scranton to > Pocono Summit over ten years ago and that > car looked like it had just come from the > Budd plant - what a great restoration. Now, > it reminds me of the final days of Penn > Central. > This does effect everyone in the northeast > who is trying to run or restore steam > because many members of the general public > are being turned off to future rides on > other lines. rcw7585@njit.edu |
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| Author: | Steamtown Observer [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bel Del |
> it's guys like this that make it hard to > like, let alone cater to railfans. Dirty cars, rude people and horseplay are things that railfans overlook. The general public has little tolerance for this stuff. Let the declining number of passengers and the lack of traffic at local businesses speak for itself. |
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| Author: | Jon Schneider [ Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bel Del |
I visited this last weekend. 1) Ridership: I can't comment on "projected ridership," since I have no idea what the figures were supposed to be. I was surprised, however, at how many people were riding. This is a first year (hopefully not the last) operation which is well past the "initial interest" point. In fact, it was so crowded I had to park elsewhere and bring my car back later. Maybe this had to do with the "heritage festival" in Easton . . . but they were riding the train in any case. 2) Man, I'm not speaking as a railfan, just a human being: the coaches gotta go. Railfan or not, no one likes a steel sweat box with welded shut windows. Perhaps this was my comeuppance for not appreciating the NJT coaches on 614 rambles. 3) Shocked at how fast the train pulled out. Smooth ride, too. What's the speed limit on the Bel-Del? 4) I watched one trip, rode the next. First trip had an "authority figure" come out and give a speech about the locomotive, consist, and I think a little bit about the route. Nice. My trip didn't get the speech. If I hadn't seen it the first time, I might not have had such a favorable impression of the trip. A fine start to an operation. It would need to take further steps to be long term, I would think. Wonder if all those Andy Muller open-window coaches are still lying around? JPS ironandsteam@msn.com |
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| Author: | K.Houser [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bel Del |
Many things have been suggested that sound rather reasonable, better equipment, better station, better this, better that.....show them the money and I am sure the would do it. You have to look at the operators themselves. BR&W has always been a rather rudementary shortline using what it has money and equipment wise....true shortline operations. While I have not ridden the BR&W itself in a few years, I never recall them giving you a narration.....something any tourist railroad should do, otherwise, it might as well just be a commuter run. Their equipment has always decayed due to the outdoor storage of it and lack of maintenece...example: their DL&W Booton cars are now shot and sitting on a siding rotting away. They have improved though with their CNJ cars and the CN cars. (although they are scrapping a CNJ car that used to be in service on a regular basis in the late 80's...pitty) They are a freight railroad and that is their priority. Give them a break for trying to do some good for the towns they operate in. The NYS&W, their LIRR cars are not tourist cars, never were, never will be. They are not the same when it comes to construction and charm of old (1920's) commuter cars and that is one reason that many [LIRR cars] are still sitting in dead lines or being scrapped. NH&I bought a bunch for their Ill fated Day Out With Thomas days and are now trying to get rid of them, they are just not tourist worthy....might as well bring out a string of Amfleet cars if you are going to get "modern" equipment for tourist operations. Fact of the matter is, NYS&W needs to make money somehow so they tried this and they are going to see how it goes. Again, give credit where it is due. 250-300 people a day is not bad for an operation just starting off. No, its not the killer numbers that Strasburg gets, but you can't really compare. Should we expect them to try to be like other operations?....kinda limits the charm and identity. Example: NH&I is all about looking good. Look at the town they are in... it's all about looks. However, a major mistake the railroad made in its re-born early(1990's)days was it started off trying to be another Strasburg instead of being what they were. NH&I in the 60's and early to mid 70's was a Railfan and a Family's paradise. Steam, mixed freights, small town charm, and a darn good amount of riders. Of course when the "circus" came to town things went down hill and they tried but never really recovered financially in the late 80's (when they painted the RDG coaches and PRR diesel back into their original colors). Today, their 7 day a week operation is still not reaching it's potential as their numbers are not that great. I don't think they have ever re-hit the peak of 100,000 people carried the during the year they reopened - 1991. They too have let good equipment go to rot and now are just getting around to getting their everyday coaches in good working order. Goes to show how you can try to look good off the bat, and at the same time how you can also mismanage something and kill your operations as you go along. The P'burg operations are just in its beginning stages, give them time and see what happens. I would suggest that they not concern themselves on Railfans though (railfan day right off the bat?) and look more towards their money source - MOM's, DAD's, GRANDPARENT's and THE KIDS!....it's all about the FAMILY. Thats your real revenue source. Do for the family, not the railfans! Thats one thing that has made the Wilmington & Western the success it is....albeit curtailed right now. They are more concerned with the family than the railfan and their numbers showed that. (I recall wroking several "regular days" (meaning no "theme") down there that over 700 people showed up for 3 trips to the Grove) Their equipment has always been rather well maintained, they have always tried to improve despite daunting obstacles, like developement and flooding. But again, they stared off small and found their calling. The classic example of starting off - Strasburg - they started off using a lumber yard siding, a wooden coach, a diesel and a small shed for a ticket office. No RR museum of PA, no steam, no station....but a lot has changed over the years, hasn't it? Give the Bel-Del operation time. ieishalle23@aol.com |
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