Dave's post below about shoestring start up operations made me think of the quick things I look for when visiting a tourist line or museum that I think are critical. I think we all have one of these lists in our heads. My list is probably different from yours but I'll base it on visiting these places now since 1966 and volunteering at them since 1986. Thus, I offer my top 10 list:

1. An inviting initial impression. (take a look at Texas State's outfit in the fall, dressed up with pumpkins, hay bales, bundled corn stalks, mums, it just says: Welcome!)

2. Clean windows. Fingerprints, snot, etc on the windows immediately subtract big points.

3. Amenities: Clean bathrooms that dont' stink, a gift shop with the run-of-the-mill stuff AND some items available exclusively there, and if in nowhereville, some place to eat at least a hot dog. If it's a hot ride in an open window car, does someone walk through and offer ice cold bottled water at a buck a pop?

4. A point to things: Does the train go somewhere or take me someplace where the roads, trails cannot? Does the musuem have a story to tell or an exclamation point in a fantastic locomotive, exhibit or gallery.

5. Wow factor. Something that I cannot do or see elsewhere: Cab access, engine on the turntable, ride across a tremendous bridge, great overlook, behind the scenes, etc.

6. Stuff for kids. I don't have them but lots of folks do. Check out RRMofPa's offering. They do it right.

7. A sense of logic: Are the narration and the signage broad enough to pull average folks in and detailed enough to educate but not turn off others?

8. A variety of experiences: Signage, interpretive people, short films, hands on, ramps into engine cabs, opportunity to ride something other than a coach or MU car, etc. There needs to be a mix of experiences and offerings. Everybody has ridden coach... just 2 weeks ago I got my first ride on a transfer cab!

9. Staff and volunteers who know and care and pay attention to the visitors instead of rehashing the Wreck of the Old '97 again on the depot platform. Lots of good folks but is the depot agent on ebay or are the conductor and engine crew debating whether to go for coal today or tomorrow afternoon?

10. If the operation looks anything like its web site, brochure or listing in the Steam Passenger Directory, I give it a big plus. For years, NCTM had a 75 cent brochure that really emphasized private car Loretto.. only problem was that the Loretto wasn't on display! A problem long since corrected but you get the point.

Go make those visitors happy and in turn, make yourself happy! Jim



http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

Right on, Jim.

Relating to that brochure issue - we did a ridership satisfaction survey on a client railroad several years ago. It was a typical diesel-switcher powered operation, good to very good conditions, nothing spectacular but nothing awful either. But the ridership survey stank up the place with unmet expectations because the riders expected a steam locomotive? How could that happen???

The brochure featured a cover shot of a very-obviously historic photo of an 1860's era 4-4-0 in front of the original depot; even though the interior brochure shots showed the diesel the expectations of an historic steam engine were lit. Like it or not, they actually expected to see that engine there. Never mind that the scene also included wood sidewalks and horses!

To a lesser extent the same thing happens with fall scenery in the east; great color-saturated shots of your trains in the foliage only further assure you'll get crushed in October and run empty in August. Not that you don't want to use 'em, just beware of LEADING with that message.

randygustafson@stoneconsulting.com

Randy, Seems I recall from a marketing class at TRAIN in Snowshoe that the absolute BEST lede photo was a kid in an engineers outfit smiling a big toothy grin... with your train in the background and NOT vice versa. Jim

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

Start by looking what other public places do. Museums are family destinations. While we don't charge $40 to get it, the public expects paved parking lots, clean and modern toliets, places for kids to have fun, places to spend a quite moment in the shade with a soda, clean train with actual paint on the cars (inside and out). How well do we do?

Now - will the familes pay extra for a paved parking lot, professionally cleaned toliets and cleaned cars?

Pacific Southwest Railway Museum
Jim@psrm.org

Jim, I second that.

I've always said the WK&S in Eastern Pennsylvania could serve as a role model to so many other tourist operations. Shoestring budget yes, but the staff is always friendly, cars well cared for, steam almost always runs when advertised, nice gift shop, cheap food and even the ability to get a coke in a real glass bottle! The bathrooms were well cleaned also.

I visited last in December the day after a major snowfal. The website was frequently updated with weather conditions and schedule status, the parking lot was plowed and the platforms were nicely shoveled.

It proves that even with a tank engine and a few Reading coaches on 3 miles of track (vs. a Strasburg or Grand Canyon experience), a passenger can have a very pleasant time.

As a tourist AND a railroader, the line had everything I could ask for. They are top of the list in my book. You'll never see a 4-8-4, roundhouse or exhibit hall there. They do one thing and they do it very well.

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

> Now - will the familes pay extra for a paved
> parking lot, professionally cleaned toliets
> and cleaned cars?

Certainly not, and they should not have to.

I have thought for a long time that we tend to spend too much of our time on doing what we want to do or what we think the public wants or what is easiest for us, rather than finding out what they actually want and then trying to fill that need.

Tourists ARE more demanding and less tolerant now, and they have been for years. They are going to get more so in the future. Get over it.

By and large, they do not share our affinity for the esoteric or the old/odd/obscure. They know little or nothing of train travel now or in the past. The older ones do remember train travel in the past, and they seldom look back on it fondly.

The things that we as railroaders or volunteers put up with on a regular basis (such as dirty or no bathrooms, dirty cars, hot cars, etc. as enumerated by others) do nothing to favorably impress our clientele. Sure, some will be tolerant and throw an extra buck or two into the jar, but most will not only not return, they will tell everyone they discuss their vacation with that your facility is not worth the time, trouble or money to visit.

It would behoove some us to go beyond the usual customer surveys and comment cards (I'm not saying those are not important) and have some "secret shoppers" visit our facilties unannounced and unknown to the staff, even to the management. As far as anyone knows, they are just regular customers, and they don't have to be able to quote the number of rivets on old '99's tender, either. They take in the entire experience of your place, then write up a report on the good, the bad,and ugly from the CUSTOMER point of view, not the view of the foamer or the regular visitor or volunteer.

Only then can you get a clear vision of your place as your customers and potential customers see it. The adept operator will sit down and study the results, and set some goals in the areas that need improvement. They will also make certain those who performed well or whose areas were noteworthy are acknowleged. The non-adept operator will ignore it.

This might get a little dicey; there will eb certain things near and dear to our hearts that don't mean squat to our customers or even alienate them. As well, there will be things important to our customers that we gave no thought to or that never occurred to us.

> Randy, Seems I recall from a marketing class
> at TRAIN in Snowshoe that the absolute BEST
> lede photo was a kid in an engineers outfit
> smiling a big toothy grin... with your train
> in the background and NOT vice versa. Jim

Take a look at the front of the WW&F's brochure: a little girl with pigtails leaning out from the platform, peering down the track toward an approaching engine (far enough away that safety is not an issue).

K4s1361@hotmail.com

I agree with everything in your post except for the first statement.

Let me expand the discussion:

Example - Our visitors pay $15 for an hour train ride, dirt parking lot, old toliets in a trailer, etc.

Will they pay $20.00 for an hour train ride, paved parking lots, new toilets, etc

?????

Pacific Southwest Railway Museum
Jim@psrm.org

I'd have to especially commend Strasburg for being a family attraction and well set up. For the kids, there is the handcar rides and the Cagney is closer to their size despite it being a working breathing steam locomotive. The shop tours are also interesting, but I could see kids falling asleep that aren't interested (the age requirement is 6). At the Sierra, the shop tours include turntable rides, which the kids love.

Another thing I thought was a brilliant idea with Strasburg was the dining car. You pay a few extra dollars to ride in the dining car, it wasn't even that much of a difference, and you pay extra for your food. Having driven hours to get there, we hadn't had time to stop for lunch. The people working at SRC were all very friendly especially those in the dining car. It wasn't fancy china but it was lunch; the food was good, cheap, and simple. Strasburg's ride is relatively short compared to other railroads, but it was plenty of time to order, relax and enjoy the ride, and eat. It was a hot day; but their was plenty of lemonade, iced tea, and water. There are also places to get a quick lunch at the station. In addition there are some well-stocked book/gift stores with quality stuff in there for anybody from a 2-year-old to a 75-year-old railfan.

In addition, the coaches were immaculate; the windows opened and were not dirtied up. You could tell serious work was put into the restoration and upkeep of these historic wooden coaches. You could tell the kind of business they do there too; there were over 150 people around the station area at train time and this was a normal day.

It's stuff like this that makes a successful and popular tourist railroad operation.

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

> Example - Our visitors pay $15 for an hour
> train ride, dirt parking lot, old toliets in
> a trailer, etc.

> Will they pay $20.00 for an hour train ride,
> paved parking lots, new toilets, etc

> ?????

How do you know until you try to get $20 out of them?

Or do you want to tell them that they park on dirt and pee in a trailer because that keeps the price down? What I meant was that today's tourist has long been conditioned to expect such things as paved parking, bright, clean restrooms, good signage, etc. They don't expect to have to pay extra for that. They know it's figured into the price of admission.

Remember, I'm not talking about the 5% or 10% of your customers who are railfans amd don't care abut such things. I'm talking about the other 90% or 95%, the non-fans, where the REAL money (and the future) is.

> Example - Our visitors pay $15 for an hour
> train ride, dirt parking lot, old toliets in
> a trailer, etc.

> Will they pay $20.00 for an hour train ride,
> paved parking lots, new toilets, etc

> ?????

Hmmm - how do we define value? We do have a 5 acre parking lot which is still gravel, but we charge 10 bucks for unlimited train rides, and some days there are as many as 8 different trains running! So on a busy day you could enjoy about 220 minutes of riding and not repeat the same train/route combination. Frequent departures too.

Brand new clean restrooms, professionally cleaned, indoors air conditioned old time diner with reasonable prices, free use of picnic tables, and virtually all parts of the central museum campus and displays have paved roads and walkways including wheelchair accessable for over 95% of the displays.

Maybe all is not lost, yet.

As to surveys, etc we have found that those who fill out such cards are generally favorable and pre disposed to give a friendly slap on the back; but that our members and volunteers can be far more critical, especially if trying to spot areas for improvement.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

> Relating to that brochure issue - we did a
> ridership satisfaction survey on a client
> railroad several years ago. It was a typical
> diesel-switcher powered operation, good to
> very good conditions, nothing spectacular
> but nothing awful either. But the ridership
> survey stank up the place with unmet
> expectations because the riders expected a
> steam locomotive? How could that happen???

> The brochure featured a cover shot of a
> very-obviously historic photo of an 1860's
> era 4-4-0 in front of the original depot;
> even though the interior brochure shots
> showed the diesel the expectations of an
> historic steam engine were lit. Like it or
> not, they actually expected to see that
> engine there. Never mind that the scene also
> included wood sidewalks and horses!

> To a lesser extent the same thing happens
> with fall scenery in the east; great
> color-saturated shots of your trains in the
> foliage only further assure you'll get
> crushed in October and run empty in August.
> Not that you don't want to use 'em, just
> beware of LEADING with that message.

Many years ago in the Navy, they use to show the movie "12 O'clock High" as a case study in military burn out. I've wondered if you considered using the Hopewell Production's, "The Rise and Fall of Morris County Central" in a similar way? It shows all the effort and style necessary to set up a tourist train including some of the considerations of marketing and equipment selection. The intense drive and almost super human dedication, commitment and effort by Mr. Gil make it a reality. Then the story progresses documenting the honeymoon with the host railroad and in time the greed of the host railroad forcing the rails to be shot from beneath the drivers. Mr. Gil must find a new home and the story shows the pain of moving the whole operation. And when things are starting to look up, encountering NIMBYism (is that a word?) and the legal challenges that drain the coffers even more and the eventual vandalism as a result of a successful legal rebuff. Mr. Gil finally burned out and left the MCC to the board. Without a "guiding light," the railroad suffered irreversibly from several untoward events including a serious mistake of one of the volunteers. They finally reached the nadir of having a Plymouth critter pulling the train because of the lack of steam. The completion of the interstate put the final nail in the coffin when the customer base dried up. While Hopewell focus on the heroics, it is a nice demonstration of the life cycle of a "personality" driven company or organization.

Ed



ff1044@aol.com