The Bel Del thread got me to wondering, hoping for educated opinions. I have not been to Bel Del and this isn't about them - just general marketing.

Can we, in this day of highly produced entertainment, afford to start small and rough and expect the public to understand and help us grow, or should we not frustrate ourselves by starting operations until we can afford to do it "right"?

If you went to a Broadway play and found the sets unpainted and the actors reading from scripts in hand, and the theatre hot as an oven with no air flow, would you be satisfied? Would you come back? Bring your friends?

We may not all need to be the Orient Express, but once we decide what the personality / concept of our operation is supposed to be, do we owe it to the public not to expose them to it until we have produced it to the point of physical comfort, high entertainment value, and made sure all the ancillary requirements such as bathrooms are present and pleasant?

I seem to have made a career of low budget startups and am well aware of all the pitfalls and processes that go into creating something on a shoestring and having to explain and apologise afterward. Over the past 3 decades I have noticed a diminishing tolerance in the general public for discomfort and inconvenience, and a rising set of expectations for whatever they choose to spend their entertainment / recreation dollars on.

Some expectations issues are easily addressed by keeping them reasonable in distributed marketing - if your cars are converted flatcars with benches and arch roofs and open sides, make it clear the train ride isn't climate controlled. But make the open air cars comfortable, attractive and pleasant open air cars. If you can't, like Strasburg on day one, should you open your doors? Day one at Strasburg was decades ago when many things were different. Can we still use the 1950 formula for building a business today?

Any marketing gurus out there please chime in.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> The Bel Del thread got me to wondering,
> hoping for educated opinions. I have not
> been to Bel Del and this isn't about them -
> just general marketing.

> Can we, in this day of highly produced
> entertainment, afford to start small and
> rough and expect the public to understand
> and help us grow, or should we not frustrate
> ourselves by starting operations until we
> can afford to do it "right"?

> If you went to a Broadway play and found the
> sets unpainted and the actors reading from
> scripts in hand, and the theatre hot as an
> oven with no air flow, would you be
> satisfied? Would you come back? Bring your
> friends?

> We may not all need to be the Orient
> Express, but once we decide what the
> personality / concept of our operation is
> supposed to be, do we owe it to the public
> not to expose them to it until we have
> produced it to the point of physical
> comfort, high entertainment value, and made
> sure all the ancillary requirements such as
> bathrooms are present and pleasant?

> I seem to have made a career of low budget
> startups and am well aware of all the
> pitfalls and processes that go into creating
> something on a shoestring and having to
> explain and apologise afterward. Over the
> past 3 decades I have noticed a diminishing
> tolerance in the general public for
> discomfort and inconvenience, and a rising
> set of expectations for whatever they choose
> to spend their entertainment / recreation
> dollars on.

> Some expectations issues are easily
> addressed by keeping them reasonable in
> distributed marketing - if your cars are
> converted flatcars with benches and arch
> roofs and open sides, make it clear the
> train ride isn't climate controlled. But
> make the open air cars comfortable,
> attractive and pleasant open air cars. If
> you can't, like Strasburg on day one, should
> you open your doors? Day one at Strasburg
> was decades ago when many things were
> different. Can we still use the 1950 formula
> for building a business today?

> Any marketing gurus out there please chime
> in.

> dave
I for one think Dave makes avery valuable point.
I've been on the Bel-Del ride twice and must confess that IMHO very very few general public riders will go away with anything nice to say about it.
As repeatedly posted by others in detail suffice it to say that the equipment is extremely dirty and VERY hot, there's no narration or printed guide to tell you anything about the ride/history/river etc.,other then the whistle you can't hear the little steamer, and the scenery is mostly a tree tunnel although there are glimpses here and there of the Delaware.

Unfortunatly I would guess that about 95% of the riders go away with a "never again" reaction.

Too bad as it does have potential if;
1. It had several "old fashioned" open-window coaches that at least let in a breeze while you're moving.
2. A narrator(p.a. system) is in place with a good script to give the customers a brief history of the area/river/railroad
3. The trees/brush are cleared at selected spots along the way to provide good views of the river.
4. The station area is cleaned up and finished so it's attractive vs. an eye-sore.
5. The train crew is trained on how to give freindly/informative/interesting service to the customer.
6. Signage throughout the town is provided showing one how to get to the remote location.
7. The equipment is kept clean,run on time and the crews are trained in how to make people feel special and want to return.

I sincerely hope this can happen. The product now being offered has IMHO a VERY short shelf life!!! Ross Rowland

rrowland@weidel.com

> Can we, in this day of highly produced
> entertainment, afford to start small and
> rough and expect the public to understand
> and help us grow, or should we not frustrate
> ourselves by starting operations until we
> can afford to do it "right"?

Well, SCRM is still more or less in that "shoestring" mode. Yes, it causes problems, most notably with local leaders. But I've found that the public isn't as insistent on a fully developed experience as you might think. As long as their experience is pleasant overall, the rough edges actually keep them coming back every once in a while to see what you've accomplished.

To me, the key to keeping your riders happy is to show them a good time and behave in a professional manner. It's important not to confuse "professional" with "formal," however. You can act formally without being professional, and you can also be informal while still presenting a professional appearance. We keep things relatively informal at SCRM but, I think, still manage to present a professional attitude.

I think it's wrong to assume that "the public" wants highly sophisticated entertainment. A shoestring startup can make it with the right attitude. In fact, I think that the rough edges actually help donations -- people feel like you need the money more!

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@msmgmt.com

Both Dave and Mr. Rowland (I've rode on a train he was driving and saw him on tv so I feel politeness is warranted) make several very valid points. People don't want to ride in hot cars; doesn't have to be air conditioned, but windows that open with relative ease are a must. A knowledgeable staff on the train is important; a good conductor who is friendly, approachable, and can answer the run of the mill questions about the train, the route, etc. is very helpful. You may not have or even want a PA system to narrate the trip; sometimes a static filled dry recitation of a cue card by a bored employee can do more harm than good. A simple, legible handout sheet for passengers can sometimes be even better; coupled of course with the aforementioned friendly conductor. A clean, reasonably maintained station area with interesting things for the kids to look at is important; they may be there an hour or more waiting for the train so keep them interested. Seating both on and off the train is important. On the train the seats should be as comfortable as possible with historic equipment; broken seats don't encourage repeat customers. In the station area there should be enough seating (sheltered from the weather if possible) for most of the passengers waiting on a train. Clean bathrooms are a must (go somewhere with your wife that has stinky, lousy bathrooms, then see if she wants to go back). If all anyone sees out the window on the trip is brush and woods with nothing beyond they won't be back. Of course I am basically just reiterating what has already been said; but these are points that most every successful operation has taken to heart. Those that have not only suffer or fail.

I once took a buddy of mine up to the Reading and Northern for a trip to Tamaqua years ago. Now this guy likes trains some but is not by any means a railfan. He had a blast and went back several times after. Here is why:

They left on time.

The train was very clean.

The train crew was superb.

There was something to do in Tamaqua.

The layover was not too long nor too short.

The R&N gave out very infomative handouts.

They got back on time.

Now this friend does not ride many excursions to this day but if I tell him about a recent excursion I have ridden he still tells me he did not think anyone could do better then that trip to Tamaqua.

I took my family on the fall excursion to Baird's Farm behind the #142 a couple of years ago and was very impressed with the ride.

The train ran close to schedule, the cars were comfortable, and the crew was nice. I think we were given handouts pertaining to the line but I am not sure. The one thing that was most memorable was they had dinning car service. We went to the dinner, sat down, were waited on, were served, and ate while we rolled along.

If the Bel-Del crew is the same bunch I am sure they know wheat to do. They have done it before! I was going to try to get up there sometime this month. I will have to see for myself but at least I know not to go if it is really hot.

Tom Gears

The operation this summer at the Bel Del is actually much, much more than had been originally planned.

The original concept was to run motorcar rides with the 1930 Brill Car, affectionately known as "The Delaware Turtle". The car interior is clean, well-restored, and should require minimal costs in terms of fuel, mechanical upkeep, and operating manpower, all resources that are completely tapped out by running the steam train.

Having to provide crews to run the steam train has been an absolute nightmare for me. I am forced to take volunteers off my roster here at Black River & Western and put them up there. Where does that leave BR&W?

I read through these threads and I see all kinda yowyowing about, "this isn't right, that's not right, blah, blah, blah".

All I can respond to this is that we have been a volunteer-run organization here for 40 years, and if you don't like something, get off your chair in front of the computer and come out here and see this daunting task up close with your own 2 eyes.

It's overwhelming for me as one person to try and get everything running smoothly, and the way _I_ would like it. I really could use a hand.

Rod Whitehead


rcw7585@njit.edu

Dave,

Your points are excellent, perhaps all hitting the nail square on the head.

However, can we afford *not* to haev shoestring start ups? If so, does that mean that only museums funded by multi-million-dollar budgets can open?

Should, as a favorite example, the Railroad Museum of New England not have started with porta potties and a small parking lot while embarking ona vision that has seen regular improvements including the much-lauded potty station?

If the answer is "no," then what should they do?

Should collections fall into the same sad state as the New Jersey collection, where the long march towards a bazillion-dollar museum has left much of the collection to rot in waiting?

These are hard questions, and I am not sure there are easy or balck-and-white answers (not suggesting you were thinking black and white).

It is a very difficult subject.

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

Dave,

This was the topic of a seminar one of the folks from Stone Consulting, Gary Landrio(sp) gave at the TRAIN meeting in Plano a couple of years ago.

Gary started out with a slide show. The first couple of slides were of a small railfan club type tourist train where the first image folks go driving into a parking lot was a junk yard and a set of port-a-potties. The point was easily taken: Would you want to take this ride?

Truth is, the public will embrace a well done simple operation but not something that looks like Sanford & Son. One of the best operations around that I have visited was a simple line with one small but well kept shop, one small but well presented depot, one loco, one open deck car, one caboose, about a mile of track, good crew, etc. It's a great contrast to a railroad museum that resembles a scrapper. Keep it simple. Do the basics right and then build on up from there but don't forget that bathrooms, running water, clean windows, amenities, friendly folks, etc. all mean a lot! Jim

Jim



http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> Truth is, the public will embrace a well
> done simple operation but not something that
> looks like Sanford & Son. One of the
> best operations around that I have visited
> was a simple line with one small but well
> kept shop, one small but well presented
> depot, one loco, one open deck car, one
> caboose, about a mile of track, good crew,
> etc. It's a great contrast to a railroad
> museum that resembles a scrapper.

This fits the profile of a railroad I volunteered with in the past which has done very well by starting small--the Walkersville Southern in Frederick, MD.

Their standard train is a critter, an open flat with a roof, rails a bench, a troop sleeper, and a Webash streamstyle caboose. The troop sleeper has been fitted with wooden bench seats, the windows open, and it has ceiling fans.

All the equiptment is nicely painted and lettered and kept very clean.

Marketing is strictly local--the experience is sold as a fun "train ride" rather than a hard-core history experience. They do special events nearly every weekend, including all the cheesey ones--easter bunny rides, face painting, etc.

Completely authentic, no. But the equipment all works, they keep everything in good repair, and they have generated enough money to reopen and maintain 4 miles of otherwise embargoed and lost PRR Frederick Secondary track, as well as a neat little rural depot and freight station.

eledbetter@rypn.org

I feel that this is an important reality check discussion for all of us. First, I am personally humbled that anyone remembers anything from a seminar that I gave two years ago. Heck, our priest would love us to remember his sermon even for one week.

Second, having worked as a consultant to Disney, we learned that you do not need to spend a million dollars to create a successful attraction. You do need to understand what are the fatal flaws of tourism. The things which will send the mother with two small children away in disgust, and create the "word of mouth" which will doom an operation after the initial curiosity. As my Associate Randy says, "lets not our educational mission be to educate people never again to ride a tourist train."

Historians, (God bless them), tend to be "nuts and bolts" people. We can preserve really well, but when it comes to understanding entertainment, sometimes we just don't get it. There is probably not a tourism operation that Randy or I go to that we do not see something which can meaningfully improve the ridership, public perception or rider satisfaction. And most of the time we are not talking about huge money issues.

As to the question at hand, we can do small start up operations. What is paramount though is that we had better take a year longer to set them up and cover all the bases correctly. Proper publicity, clean and inviting facilities, good signage and telling a story. The most successful attractions entertain in some format. Telling our story is more important than having stuff on display or just providing a ride. Dave, Ross and others are correct that tourism is changing. Actually we must admit that it has already changed. Those operations seeing declining attendance are behind the curve as to what the tourist in 2004 is expecting. Unless we focus our limited resources on, as Emeril says, “notching it up”. We will not succeed.

Gary Landrio

Stone Consulting & Design
garylandrio@stoneconsulting.com

I'm not sure which post to follow, or in which thread, but let me jump in with my two cents here.

As posted earlier, my ten year old and I rode on the first trip of the day on Father's Day. There were signs all over town directing you to the train, and a banner over the street right at the parking lot. The lot was full, so we had to park two blocks away. No big deal; I was glad to see that there was some business for the train.

I was expecting to buy tickets from a card table, or little more, and was surprised to see a real ticket booth, small, but built in an appropriate architectural style. The shelter at the bottom of the hill, Lehigh Junction, was another surprise; I do agree that the port-o-let could have been a greater distance away.

The train itself was clean, and on that particular trip, the one out of four windows that opened were enough. I can imagine, later in the day, if the A/C wasn't working correctly, that those cars could become ovens, but I didn't personally have that experience. Open window coaches would help, but the train (the 142, the M-1 and the LIRR five) came as a package deal.

The woman sitting ahead us had to take her young daughter to use the facilities on the train. We had been talking about the train and locomotive before, so I asked her if the bathroom was clean. She said it was fine, no problems.

Granted, the ride could be a bit longer, and the brush needed cutting on the river side. Someone else posted the fact that they have just added a PA system to the train. (I personally can go either way on that issue. Is there anyone here that doesn't have the Strasburg spiel memorized?) Still, a brief talk, welcome aboard, etc. would have been nice.

Once back at P'burg, we took a look at the M-1, and had an interesting discussion about fuel shutoffs and SPV driveshafts with the gentleman that was maintaining the car that day. I thought the M-1 looked pretty good; it sounded good and the A/C was working.

There seems to be confusion as to who is operating these excursions. The Susquehanna Technical and Historical Society owns the 142, the five LIRR coaches and the M-1, not the NYS&W Railroad. The NYSW Tech group has been providing personnel and the equipment, while the BR&W has been providing operating crews and the railroad. (Funny, my ticket said something about a round trip between Flemington and Ringoes--) The blue booklet at the ticket counter, printed for these trips, had lots of interesting historical information, and to some degree made up for the lack of announcements on the train.

All in all, I liked what I saw. I was expecting much worse; a dusty parking lot, no structures or even shade, etc. The path from the parking lot down to track level was paved; even that small improvement represented an investment, and gave me the impression that this is a serious operation and that the operators planned on being around for awhile. I think the operators are doing the best they can do with the equipment and facilities they have.

Give this thing a chance, and it will grow. The Strasburg (which I consider textbook) wasn't the Strasburg of today when it started back in 1958. As has been posted by others; a Plymouth, a coach, a plywood ticket office, park benches in a lumberyard. Seems like the Bel-Del operation is beyond that already. Rome wasn't built in a day, either. Cut some brush, extend the ride a little, make the engine work (if you can), add a demonstaration runby, and it should be a real winner.



edm5970@earthlink.net

I think that perhaps why Strasburg was able to start small was tourist railroads weren't a big thing back then. But now, tourist railroads having been around for decades, people who have visited the big ones like Strasburg, etc go to a place like the new Bel-Del and walk away very dissapointed and "I'm never coming back here" attitude. Corporate sponsorships or investors will help get the ball rolling given you have a pretty slick proposal. The link I have provided below is a start-up operation in the past few years, though its owner has been working on it for some time. When it opened to the public, it had a replica passenger station (not a bus stop type shed) with proper restrooms, a snack bar, etc. Sure it may be 2' and 7.5" gauge, but its got steam, a 2' gauge Dash 8, and lots of other stuff. As you can see a good job has been done with this. Lots of pictures too. Plus a very nice brick storage facility. They waited until everything was perfect to open up; and they did, and apparently it is doing quite well and they are extending their track. When the supposed new Georgetown Loop operators come in, no doubt there will be great dissapointment because the operation that the Ashbys and Greksas have run for 30+ years is going to be gone and the new owners will be starting from scratch and will have more than a hard time trying to make it the way the old Georgetown Loop was.

S&S Shortline
GTNGRR@aol.com

Ed

The S&S website is a great example of how not to market online. The homepage tells nothing of the exhibit, and there is no place -- not even on the directions page -- that says where it is. The map says Farmington. What state? Maine? New Mexico?

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

Yes interesting point...I never exactly explored the website that well. It's in Farmington, Utah. Strasburg probably has the best website in terms of marketing, but I haven't been to them all. The C&TS shops site is pretty good but that is for railroad people, not the public looking for fares, etc.