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PA systems?
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Author:  Matt Conrad [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  PA systems?

The Bel-Del threads and the "Can we afford it" threads mentioned PA systems. I thought I'd start a separate discussion on these systems alone. How do y'all feel about them?

If you don't want to be biased, reply BEFORE you read any further. I'm going to give my opinion now. :o)

Personally, I feel that the proper place for a PA system is in the depot and on the depot platform to announce train arrivals and departures, not on board the train. I believe in the crew "working the train" instead of finding an empty seat somewhere and taking a little nap, as I've seen more than a few trainmen do. I usually walk my train at least twice each trip when I conduct, and take my time doing it, visiting with small groups of passengers. If your crews know how to do this, you won't need a PA.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@msmgmt.com

Author:  Ed Kelley [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  PA Systems and Tourist RRs

It would be nice for a live speech, however, with the length of trains the PA saves money instead of having a conductor per car. At Roaring Camp the conductor performs a speech for the entire length of the trip and it is well done. Each varies a little differently with different stories, etc which makes it interesting as usually its never the same each time. The conductor not only performs the speech from the rear car on the PA system, but walks the train to collect tickets and interacts with the passengers. Most of the RC conductors were very people-friendly and personable and would happily answer any questions or engage in discussions as long as it didn't interfere with his jobs collecting tickets, giving the speech, or performing other duties such as throwing switches, etc. Roaring Camp has been around since the early 60s and is not just a steam train ride (and the narrow gauge line is mostly 100 percent steam unless they still run the motorcar on winter weekdays) but they also run a second standard gauge line and have a historical park set=up. Norman Clark had investors in his project and was in his 20s when he started the whole thing. Before the track was fully completed, they ran on what they had and even just around the parking lot I was told to promote what would come. 40 years later, the railroad is known worldwide and is one of the most popular attractions in the area. The other I'd say would be the Beach Boardwalk in Santa Cruz, however during the summer you can hop a train right at the Boardwalk and take it to Roaring Camp! So they really work together on this whole thing.

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

Author:  Jim Lundquist [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA Systems and Tourist RRs

I'll argue against the PA on the train. The drab that mostly comes via the PA is NOT what I paid for.

However - how about a compromise? A PA in some cars, not in others. See which ones the customers like!

One-on-one interface is the best. A small handout with what to see and do onboard can also fill in the cracks.

Pacific Southwest Railway Museum
Jim@psrm.org

Author:  Ed Kelley [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  All-Volunteer RRs, tourist etc *PIC*

An example of a good all-volunteer tourist railroad. The PSRM (or SDRM)...we drove out there maybe around 1996 even though nothing was running. It was far from civilization, did not have an indoor display building lined with glass and mirrors, or anything like that. But if you see the scenery around it; sure its no redwood forest, more mountains and desert, but it's a unique area of California. The coaches are not wood but are still vintage in age and are well-kept from the pictures I have seen on both the inside and outside. They have run at least three steam locomotives throughout their existence, and in the 90s restored #2353 to operation where it operated until a few years ago and now needs some boiler work I believe to go with the new FRA boiler code. But the point is, this place was a railroad gold mine in terms of having unique equipment, operating or not. The excursions look really great and go over a huge viaduct. And where else can you take a train ride in vintage equipment between California and Mexico? This is an example of an all-volunteer run organization that runs a good tourist railroad operation, despite the location and nature of its facilities. Sure I haven't ridden their excursion trains, met any of the crew, but from what I have seen it looks like something definitely worth visiting. Check out their web site.

SP 2353 Photo
Image
ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

Author:  Ed Burger [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

> The Bel-Del threads and the "Can we
> afford it" threads mentioned PA
> systems. I thought I'd start a separate
> discussion on these systems alone. How do
> y'all feel about them?

> If you don't want to be biased, reply BEFORE
> you read any further. I'm going to give my
> opinion now. :o)

> Personally, I feel that the proper place for
> a PA system is in the depot and on the depot
> platform to announce train arrivals and
> departures, not on board the train. I
> believe in the crew "working the
> train" instead of finding an empty seat
> somewhere and taking a little nap, as I've
> seen more than a few trainmen do. I usually
> walk my train at least twice each trip when
> I conduct, and take my time doing it,
> visiting with small groups of passengers. If
> your crews know how to do this, you won't
> need a PA.

If you are trackside or on the train and taking movies, the PA blaring can really ruin the movies that you are taking. Brief use of the PA is what I would suggest.

eburger1@san.rr.com

Author:  Eugene [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

I understand the arguements for them, but in general do not like their use. Sounds is often poor and detracts from the experience and the poor narration quality of some lines I have ridden doesn't help.

Also, personally, I HATE when the line thinks they have to have someone chatting for the entire ride. Leave at least half the ride silent! Let us talk about the sights and experience ourselves or just take it in quietly. YOU DON'T NEED TO TALK CONSTANTLY.

I like the idea of quiet cars. Or, flip it around. Advertise one car as having relevant narration and limit the PA to just small speakers at each end to ensure that those who want to hear can.

Author:  Ed Kelley [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

Usually I have noticed they only narrarate the 1st half since it is the same thing most of the time going back.

What about those zoos and places that use headsets for narraration; and when you go to a certain site you can hear the appropriate narraration? For those that don't like narraration...its silent. For those wearing the headsets, its fine. However this system would be costly and the Board of Health would most likely require cleaning of headsets between use. Perhaps simply a plug and those cheap American Airlines-type headphones that could be purchased for a fee on the train by those who want to hear narraration. After all you're not walking around like in a zoo, it wouldn't have to be wireless. Plus those things probably cost $1 to make, you can sell them for $3 and make $2 extra. They can take the headsets with them as a souvenir...it would help if it had an emblem on the earpiece.

Just a wild idea...

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

Author:  Shane Schabow [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

> Also, personally, I HATE when the line
> thinks they have to have someone chatting
> for the entire ride. Leave at least half the
> ride silent! Let us talk about the sights
> and experience ourselves or just take it in
> quietly. YOU DON'T NEED TO TALK CONSTANTLY.

I agree that at least half of the trip should be done without the PA system on, and allow the passengers to enjoy the sights and sounds in relative peace.
This is exactly what the current operator at the Georgetown Loop Railroad does now. The PA system is used at each end of the line, where passengers board the train. Safety rules are mentioned, and then a history of the railroad and valley is told on the downhill portion of the trip. On the uphill portion, the PA system is turned off,
"to allow you to enjoy the natural sounds of the Clear Creek Valley, and the sounds of engine #_ as she works hard to pull all of us Over The Loop" (from the Georgetown Loop RR conductor's speech).

Shane
GLRR volunteer



dcs310@comcast.net

Author:  Alan Walker [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  PA systems?

From a safety standpoint, PA systems ought to be mandatory on any piece of equipment used in revenue passenger service. After all, Amtrak, commuter railroads, commercial passenger aircraft and motorcoaches are required to have them. That said, they shouldn't be used constantly, just sporadically to point out certain sites of general interest and safety announcements. All passenger cars on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad are outfitted with a PA system. When I last rode it, the only time the system was used was to make the safety announcement before the train departed Chama and brief announcements just before the train departed Osier (for the clueless who missed the destination signs posted).

awalker1829@yahoo.com

Author:  Ed Kelley [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

Even the Billy Jones Wildcat Railroad has a PA system in their open air cars (18" gauge). However it is only used to play music for the holiday trains and for narraration on the Haunted Forest Halloween trains. The unit for the sound was placed on the back of the diesel #2502. Music was played through a Sony Discman hooked up to the system. It looked like a metal trash can hanging off the 2502. The whole train was also strung with lights. It looked pretty weird on daytime runs with the lights, the sound system stack, and a generator.

-Ed Kelley

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

Author:  Ron Goldfeder [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

When I was involved with the Washington DC Joint Trip Committee of NRHS and RRE groups we had our own PA system we installed in the Southern Ry cars for trips out of Alexandria, VA. Several posters have hit the nail on the head in saying you don't have to talk all the time, and never play recorded music for the "pleasure" of your passengers. We usually had one of a few professional radio personalities from the DC area who were rail fans manning the mike, and it made a tremendous difference compared to us doing it. These folks know how to keep quiet. We made a standard departure safety announcement, then just announced photo stops and similar events. A few mentions of significant sights were made in advance of reaching the location, and meets with opposing trains were announced. Stations were called on the return as well. Our system was loaned to Amtrak for the return of Freedom Train #4449 to the west coast, as they had become aware of its existance. The worst thing to do with a PA is place a blabbermouth in front of the mike, or play music on it. But is can be a great tool if used wisely and sparingly. Your safety speach will be the same for all cars, something hard to do with various car hosts or conductors doing the honors, as variations are going to happen, and you will not be able to show anyone what was said in the case of an injury and claim, while your standard script or even a pre-recorded message can be used that way. Length of trip is another consideration, as these were all day fan trips, not just hour long rides over a short distance. Every operation should consider all these factors and make a decision as there is no standard answer that will suit all situations.

rdgoldfede@aol.com

Author:  Not-a-foamer [ Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

The greatest thing about a PA system is when it is manned by a knowledgeable person who occasionally talks. Then I don't have to listen to the foamers in the next seat speculating about something they know basically nothing about. That way I learn something too - instead of mindless speculation about things that will probably never happen.

Author:  Bob Kutella [ Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

I suppose I am on board with you and many of the other responders. Generally, no PA is what is historically appropriate. But a lot of factors enter in to it.

There is at least one major event annually where we are more or less 'required' to have an on board sound system - can you guess what it is?

Then there is the length of the ride - a short trolley ride in a two man car allows the conductor to be 'interactive'.

On a longer trip, say 45 minutes or more, we try to have at least one trainman (errr- trainperson) per coach and we do NOT use a PA. So except for those five days of MAGIC, no sound is a good sound.

The other exception is multi car trains of rapid transit cars from the 1950's and newer as they have sound and were used that way. A little startling to some riders that an announcement might be made that we are coming into the station - but no travelogue during the trip. To be accurate there you have to stuff your mouth full of dirty socks and the speaker has to turn away from the mike about 2/3 of the way through.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

Author:  Linn W. Moedinger [ Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

Let me begin by stating that I personally hate PA systems on the train. That being said, we at Strasburg have a very good PA system that we use constantly.

It has been our experience over the years that we get two equally vehement complaints periodically. One because we have the PA and the other if something happens and we don't have the PA.

Our solution has been to talk one way and be quiet the other way. Designated cars does not work in our case.

We did have a case when the PA went down and the crew compensated by going car to car. It was very refreshing but I am afraid it is not sustainable. We had to enlist the Red Cap to ride the train and it was pretty intense most of the day. Adding commentators to the crew could work but the cost would be prohibitive at this point.

We are still thinking.

Strasburg Rail Road
linnwm@supernet.com

Author:  K.Houser [ Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PA systems?

> Let me begin by stating that I personally
> hate PA systems on the train. That being
> said, we at Strasburg have a very good PA
> system that we use constantly.

> It has been our experience over the years
> that we get two equally vehement complaints
> periodically. One because we have the PA and
> the other if something happens and we don't
> have the PA.

> Our solution has been to talk one way and be
> quiet the other way. Designated cars does
> not work in our case.

> We did have a case when the PA went down and
> the crew compensated by going car to car. It
> was very refreshing but I am afraid it is
> not sustainable. We had to enlist the Red
> Cap to ride the train and it was pretty
> intense most of the day. Adding commentators
> to the crew could work but the cost would be
> prohibitive at this point.

> We are still thinking.

First and foremost, we who are commenting here are more than likely all railfans who go to the said railroads for the sights the sounds and the smells of steam/diesel railroading. However, we are overlooking the fact that no one can say what John or Jane Q Public really wants when he or she and the kids come to a tourist operation. I assume they want to be entertained, but not overboard (although there are the people out there who's attention span rivals the length of a ten cent phone call) and be able to relax and enjoy their experience, which is what you are asking them to do in the first place, and who want to go away with the feeling that their money was well spent and they would be returning in the very near future for another day out with the kids.

That is something I experienced many times down at W&W working in passenger service, they had and still do have many repeat customers both from regular runs as well as charters. They are a flexible operation and it has paid off for them. They don't do everything perfectly, but they try their best to remain focused on the repeat business as well as attracting new customers. They give something to the passenger that they want....customer service.

As stated in another post, WK&S is one of the best examples of a small operation, that focuses on the family first, then the history. With exception of modern cars in their parking lot, one feels trasported back to the olden days....and for the railfan, the Reading days. They to me are a minature Strasburg, without all the hype and crowds.

Strasburg is a good example of a early 1900's main terminal and a short line operation. It is a shame that they dont have more mileage for the railfans but the trip is just right for the family...which is more important!

Narration can be a major failing point for many operations. I have always loathed the narrator who sounded like a drone reading a script, one who would stumble their way through the entire trip. On the same token, an over zealous narrator can become very annoying... almost like you want to get up and smack them upside the head and say "STOP BEING SO DARN PERKY!"

I think Linn said it right when he noted that SRR has narration on the way out and quiet on the way back. That is the best way allow people to enjoy their experience. They want to know, they want to learn, but not know it all and learn it all in one 45-60 minute trip. Make them want to come back and learn some more and of course, spend some more!


ieishalle23@aol.com

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