Does anybody know if the GCRY got their #29 back in service for this season as planned? I also heard that #18 was or is going to be retired.

I went to their website but the information on locomotives said "expected", so I'm not sure if it happened yet.

This is a first-class operation and it started off on a good foot too. They must have had tremendous funding when they opened in 1989.

They also are home to the best collection of restored SP commuter coaches anywhere. You won't find one of those coaches in that shape just anywhere. Amazing; these coaches were used until the late 70s, maybe early 80s. Their replacements, the gallery cars, are scattered; some are in Alaska.

> Does anybody know if the GCRY got their #29
> back in service for this season as planned?
> I also heard that #18 was or is going to be
> retired.

> I went to their website but the information
> on locomotives said "expected", so
> I'm not sure if it happened yet.

> This is a first-class operation and it
> started off on a good foot too. They must
> have had tremendous funding when they opened
> in 1989.

> They also are home to the best collection of
> restored SP commuter coaches anywhere. You
> won't find one of those coaches in that
> shape just anywhere. Amazing; these coaches
> were used until the late 70s, maybe early
> 80s. Their replacements, the gallery cars,
> are scattered; some are in Alaska.

2-8-0 #29 is in service as is 2-8-2 #4960. 2-8-0 #18 is not operating, as her time expired last year. The Randy Parten auction added several more stainless steel cars including a couple of short Budd domes. They ARE a first class operation.

Don C.

milw261@sbcglobal.net

Thanks for the update. I was just on their site today. The hotel they built also looks pretty first-class with the indoor pool. The rolling stock is the most immaculate from what I've seen, though I have never been there. We talked about taking Amtrak to Williams from California and connecting there. All of the rolling stock looks beautiful! Somewhere around here I have their book. Maybe when I do go I can plan it if 3751 goes back...that would be a sight.

Thanks for the update,
Ed Kelley

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

Ed,

By all means, ride the Grand Canyon! You won't be disappointed. The RR is so accommodating, they even stop the train to let the "Bank Robbers" on! (OK, so I could have done without the "Bank Robbers", but everyone else seemed to enjoy them.)

My wife and I rode the RR a couple of years ago. I recommend "Dome" class. I'm sure the parlour car is nice too, but we wanted the view from the dome. I'd do the same again!

Breakfast at the Williams depot was not bad. We didn't stay at the new Frey Marcos hotel. It looked pretty snazzy, but we were up the street. (Hampton Inn??? I don't remember, but it was comfortable and had a pool too.)

Next time, we hope to stay at the El Tovar on the South Rim. The train is great, but the Canyon is without equal!

Have a good trip!

Best Regards,
Glenn


christensenge@yahoo.com

If you go, the Red Garter B&B (bed and bakery) is across the tracks and the street from the depot. You can stay in a real Cat House! We got the Madam's room, which overlooked 3571 and all the BNSF action on the Peavine. Williams has turned into a delightful town for visitors, much better than a drying community on old US 66. Jim

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> If you go, the Red Garter B&B (bed and
> bakery) is across the tracks and the street
> from the depot. You can stay in a real Cat
> House! We got the Madam's room, which
> overlooked 3571 and all the BNSF action on
> the Peavine. Williams has turned into a
> delightful town for visitors, much better
> than a drying community on old US 66. Jim

I realize that the GC is a first class operation and I realize that they run steam during the summer. My wife even has relatives in the Phoenix area. And I have always wanted to see the Grand Canyon. But there is NO WAY I am going to Arizona during the summer! During "off peak" periods GC operates diesels. I like old diesels as much as the next guy, but I will not go down to Arizona during the "off season" if I can't ride the GC behind steam. Now I realize that the GC uses the off season to do maintenance on their steamers. BUT, wouldn't it make sense to have a "steam week" during say, February or March? Or at least a steam weekend? Might actually draw a few "snowbirds" down there during that time! Heck, I might even have an excuse then to visit the wifes relatives. And even, temporarily at least, forgive the GC for ruining 4960's looks!

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

midlandblb@cs.com

Yes that's true. I have been to Phoenix in July and it is NOT pleasant. The FPA-4s were used in the GCRY commercial which was surprising to me since the rarity of steam, you'd think if they showed a steam engine it would bring in more people. I suppose they are well-known enough that they don't really even need a commercial. They have run #18 in the winter, in the snow; I have seen pictures of this as well as video footage. In fact you can even get your own checks with the #18 running through the snow in the background. The Harriman cars have ceiling fans, and the more expensive cars have air conditioning (no word on how effective that is). But if you want to go out and tour the Grand Canyon in the summer, that is the unbearable part I am sure. A lot of people like those pack mule tours...and nothing smells worse than that in 100 degree temperatures! They do offer a bus around the rim of the canyon which is air conditioned.

-Ed Kelley

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

> But if you want to go out and tour the
> Grand Canyon in the summer, that is the
> unbearable part I am sure.

I think the lesson to be learned here is that the GC does not market itself solely as a railfan destination, nor are they selling just a train ride. Probably 95% of it's customers could care less what is pulling the train. As to the summer, that's when tourism is at it's peak int he area, temperatures be what they may. Thus, you go where the money is.

Again, IMO, too many operations are focused on the tiny percentage of railfans, and by doing so, they deny themselves access to the overwhelming majority, who are not fans and never will be. But they can be customers. And donors.

> I realize that the GC is a first class
> operation and I realize that they run steam
> during the summer. My wife even has
> relatives in the Phoenix area. And I have
> always wanted to see the Grand Canyon. But
> there is NO WAY I am going to Arizona during
> the summer! During "off peak"
> periods GC operates diesels. I like old
> diesels as much as the next guy, but I will
> not go down to Arizona during the "off
> season" if I can't ride the GC behind
> steam. Now I realize that the GC uses the
> off season to do maintenance on their
> steamers. BUT, wouldn't it make sense to
> have a "steam week" during say,
> February or March? Or at least a steam
> weekend? Might actually draw a few
> "snowbirds" down there during that
> time! Heck, I might even have an excuse then
> to visit the wifes relatives. And even,
> temporarily at least, forgive the GC for
> ruining 4960's looks!

> Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad
> Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

Les,
I head to Phoenix a week from today and plan to ride the GC Rwy behind #4960 on Friday, July 23. I'll report about weather conditions and heat indices when I return. I've put off seeing #4960 under steam for long enough. It has only been 38 years!

Don C.

milw261@sbcglobal.net

Actually the average person (non-foamer/railfan/railroader/what have you) can still tell the difference between steam and diesel, hence why amusement companies created the "steam profile" locomotives to try and trick the average person my making them appear steam but running on gas. When this didn't work they tried steam sound effects and smoking mechanisms. It works to some extent. I heard a story of a driver of a Chance Rides gas-powered amusement train who, when asked when the build date of the train was, responded "It's a real steam locomotive built in 1868" and was quite assured that this information was accurate. People don't always know what a steam locomotive is mechanically and that it actually runs on steam, but they will associate it with looks; particularly "big smoke stacks" that call out "Wild West". The smoke helps that. People usually associate diesels with modern commuter operation and steam with the "good old days", the "roaring 20s". Steam still draws the most, no matter who the audience is. And the truth is ANYONE, no matter railfan/foamer/average person...will go out of their way if it is a real steam locomotive.

Just my two cents

> Steam still draws the most, no
> matter who the audience is. And the truth is
> ANYONE, no matter railfan/foamer/average
> person...will go out of their way if it is a
> real steam locomotive.

> Just my two cents

Well, then you need to explain why GCRY (just to cite one operation that I know pretty well) does not have any ridership decline when they use the FPA's or other diesels instead of steam. From all their evidence, it makes no difference in their ridership, but it makes a big difference in the operating costs. And that is why they have reduced the amount of steam operations over the years. Ridership hasn't suffered, and they still run steam occasionally, but not all the time.

If your theory was correct, they would have empty trains when the steam locos were cold, and they don't.

So, why?

> Les,
> I head to Phoenix a week from today and plan
> to ride the GC Rwy behind #4960 on Friday,
> July 23. I'll report about weather
> conditions and heat indices when I return.
> I've put off seeing #4960 under steam for
> long enough. It has only been 38 years!

> Don C.

Don,

It was 82 for the high and 54 for the low today in Williams, AZ. Most people don't realize Williams is at 6800 feet elevation. It rarely gets above 85 in the summer with minimal humidity.

Locomotive 29 was on the train today and will run through the 20th of July. 4960 will run for three days for your visit, then 29 will be back on the train on the 24th to finish out its 31 day stint. Both engines have been running well all summer.

As for ruining the look of the 4960 in the previous thread. The GCR has a big investment in the Railway and its equipment and WE have always felt it was important to build our own history. Now 15 years later the railway and equipment has its own distinctive look. The initial rebuild of the 4960 cost 1.6 mil., since that time we have spent an additional 600,000-700,000 to keep it running and it has over a 100,000 miles on it. This year we will haul over 245,000 riders. As you can see the GCR is not a museum and not your tipical tourist RR. It's a for profit RR and can build its own history. It won't please everyone as it makes History.

Just as with what happened with the NS steam program could happen to the best of us. With costs rising and the rules getting tougher it will continue to be harder to operate steam in the future. See it now while it's running, weather ruined or making history. It may not be here next year.

The 4960 is still the 4960. It's the same engine that pulled the last fan trip out of Chicago Union Station in 1966 and it took 32 years before the 261 did it in 1998. You likely won't see the 4960 run in the mid-west again, but you can see it at the Grand Canyon Railway running 40 mph hauling tonnage and not stuffed and mounted like its other sisters.

R. Franzen


rfranzenjr@aol.com

> If your theory was correct, they would have
> empty trains when the steam locos were cold,
> and they don't.

> So, why?

A rider/customer survey would be interesting. My guess is that the Grand Canyon Line has transitioned from "tourist" railroad to a "commuter" railroad. The ride isn't so important but where the ride is going is important.

Ed


ff1044@aol.com

Read the next post; as mentioned it is one of the exceptions since the RR is used as a mode of transportation to the canyon rather than a tourist operation. In most cases, this IS true. If I wanted to see diesel, I'd go to the commuter rail station...not drive or fly several hours.

> But there is NO WAY I am going to Arizona during
> the summer! During "off peak"
> periods GC operates diesels. I like old
> diesels as much as the next guy, but I will
> not go down to Arizona during the "off
> season" if I can't ride the GC behind
> steam.

> Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad

Les,

We've been to the Grand Canyon several times for Labor Day weekend. Temperatures at the Rim are not extreme at all - it's probably hotter in Indiana. And evenings can get downright chilly.

Down in the Canyon it can be a cauldron. But not where the railroad runs.

JAC