Hello all,

Hopefully one of you know the answer to the following question:

At the Connecticut Eastern Railroad Museum, we are cleaning up the paint on our ALCo S-4, former Central Vermont 8081. Luckily the paint is scraping back to the late 60' to early 80's paint, black body, red ends. The problem is the light grey lettering. This paint in indirect daylight is a very light grey, almost battleship grey, but when a beam of light his it, it reflects white.

Does anyone know who currently makes this type of paint, or what the industrial name of it is?

This is how she looked in the late 60's:
http://photos.nerail.org/photos/2004021820483630651.jpg

Both are linked from the NERails Photo Archive, current photo (below) is by Tom Nanos, June 12, 2004, and the other is from Brian Nicholson, June, 1977.

The white paint you will see in the current photo is the K&L Feeds paint that is scraping off. Apparently who ever did the green and yellow paint of the 80's didn't prep the surface correctly, since it and everything afterward is coming off in one piece.

On a side note, from other photos, it looks like the other Canadian National lines (CV, GTW, CN, DLW) also used this paint.

Thanks for your help,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct
www.cteastrrmuseum.org


Connecticut Eastern Railroad Museum

rcizik5519@earthlink.net

Can't help you with the make of paint, but when we repainted handrails, side sill stripes, etc., we just used white enamel. Actually, the 8081 got one of the better preparations for green paint, which leads to a story...

When Phil Larson was general mamager of the CV, he wanted everything painted green -- pronto, so lower management, who feared for their jobs, complied. Cheap enamel paint was acquired from a firm that normally made highway paint in Brattleboro. The stuff had so much drier in it is sometimes dried before leaving the airless gun and a paintbrush would screech to a halt after about a one foot stroke. The painter they hired worked 11-7 and was expected to paint one unit per night. On one occasion one of the Alco RS11s had been washed and dried during the day and was ready for the painter to do his job that night. Unfortunately, its stall was needed for work on another unit, so the one ready for paint got set outside, and covered with falling snow. Come 11-7, the night crew had to move it into the paint pit and were melting and drying it off when our general foreman walked in. Displaying his usual terrible temper, he screamed at them to start painting that unit - NOW, ready or not. The boys complied and painted over the wet metal. Surprisingly, the paint stuck pretty well to the vertical surfaces, but all came off in a few days on the cab roof and top of the hood.

ryarger@rypn.org

This sounds like Scotchlite, which I believe was available in paint as well as decals. There is a former Ann Arbor Railroad yard office in Ann Arbor, MI from the early 1960's which has a logo on it from the same time period - it has the same properties (looks grey - reflects white).

The photo below is by Jim Rees - http://jim.rees.org/

3M Automotive, Marine, Aerospace

altoonaroundhouse@umich.edu

Several suggestions....

1) Dupont Industrial Paints has (or had) a number of railroad paint formulas on record. I painted a former NYC sleeper a few years ago. I was able to get the formulas for Dupont Imron with only a phone call. Sorry, I lost the phone number, but I believe they were located in Maryland.

2) 'CN Lines Special Interest Group' might be able to help. Their website is at http://www.cnlines.com .

3) The Canadian Railway Museum, operated by the Canadian Railroad Historical Association, has a number of former CN engines in just this colour that were painted recently. Their website is http://www.exporail.org/association/intro_crha.htm .

> Does anyone know who currently makes this
> type of paint, or what the industrial name
> of it is?

A similar description was given with UP lettering as researched by our CMO with the repaint of UP618 this spring. He pointed out that aluminum paint was notorious for showing brushstrokes and so the painters would use a paint and while still wet would dust the paint with aluminum powder--embedding the color in the still wet surface without brushstrokes showing.

He also described the characteristic of looking aluminum but reflecting light as 'white'.

The new vinyl letter used shows that property quite well--IMHO.

I guess the 'test of the pudding' will be the visit by the UPHS to Heber next week.

sc 'doc' lewis

utweyesguy@aol.com

Doc,

For the lettering, I wouldn't be opposed to using the reflective film, but if you look at the 1968/69 photo, you will see the reflective band goes around the whole side frame. Probably could use the film and cut it around the railing stanchions, but it would be a last ditch effort. It could also be the same paint that was used on the end railings, hopefully scraping will tell. Might just use ordinary white or light grey paint for health reasons.

Do you have any further info on the aluminum powder method or the aluminum paint? Especially since a spraygun is the planned application method for the side frame.

Any idea how the UPHS wrapped the film around the door edges, or did they cut them to the edge of the door, thus when you look from an angle to the surface, you will see blank door edge, instead of the paint wrapping around.

Take care,

Rich


Connecticut Eastern Railroad Museum

rcizik5519@earthlink.net

I spent a lot of time looking at, but never repainting, the CN black/white/orange scheme on passenger cars. What looks like white is, as you pointed out, a very pale grey. Probably (but not certainly) the same grey was used for the big herald on the Diesel hoods. If I had to paint one of these units I would cut some white paint with a little of the black until it looked right. To be precise, you might try cleaning the old grey with fine sandpaper or steel wool until you get an unoxidized patch big enough to use for a sample. You have probably got a lot of latitude because just about any pale grey will look right in comparison with the black field next to it. Pure white, of course, will look very wrong.

I recall the grey as a "warm" grey, that is, with a bit of red in it, as opposed to a "cool" or bluish grey, so you might want to darken the white paint with ochre or something other than pure black.

The 1966 CN paint scheme is a simple but sophisticated design, which probably explains why it still looks good almost 40 years later. It received some prizes for graphic design at the time. The artists realized that pure white would soil fast and look cheap and garish in combination with the black, and so specified the pale grey. It is perceived as white, but isn't. The "red" of course isn't red, either, but red-orange. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the black was cut back somewhat, too, but I never saw a freshly-painted piece of equipment that hadn't been on the road and gotten dusty.

Good luck mixing these colors.

Aarne H. Frobom