Detroit Streetcars, Circa-1950

Frank Kyper · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:23 am

I will soon be returning to the Detroit area for the first time in over 54 years. In 1950, Detroit had a standard gauge streetcar system that was declining as the first expressways were being built. I think there were only about two lines left, one of which extended out Woodward Avenue that I rode. The cars were mostly Peter Witts and PCCs. The systems lasted only a few more years.

About 1970, I had an exchange of correspondence with a group in the Detroit area that was trying to start a trolley museum and owned two of the city's trolleys - I don't remember what kind. At the time, there apparently was some electrified trackage at one of the city's sewage plants or maintenance yards, and the cars were occasionally operated over this short trackage. Since then, I have heard no more. Does anybody know what happened to this group and its cars?

frank@frankkyper.com

EDM · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:17 am

Just by coincidence, I was looking at the November/December 1995 issue of L&RP last night. There was an article on the Detroit Citizens Railway. which operated between 1976 and December 1994. It was North America's first new-start heritage trolley line. Could this be the line?

> About 1970, I had an exchange of
> correspondence with a group in the Detroit
> area that was trying to start a trolley
> museum and owned two of the city's trolleys
> - I don't remember what kind. At the time,
> there apparently was some electrified
> trackage at one of the city's sewage plants
> or maintenance yards, and the cars were
> occasionally operated over this short
> trackage. Since then, I have heard no more.
> Does anybody know what happened to this
> group and its cars?

edm5970@earthlink.net

Dave · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:16 pm

According to this link they're either gone by now or soon to be.

Detroit plans to sell its 9 trolleys

Timothy Davis · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:27 pm

> According to this link they're either gone
> by now or soon to be.

The cars have not been sold. They are in storage. All I've been able to learn so far is that they might use them at another location, possible along the riverfront.

It is possible that the group Mr. Kyper is thinking of eventually started the Michigan Transit Museum which was established in 1973. I think an MTM member visits this website regularly. An input, if you're out there?

Tim Davis
Detroit, MI

Michigan Transit Museum
wbaoffice@ameritech.net

Dave Sutter · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:41 pm

The Detroit Citizens Railway was recently (last year) shut down. The Michigan Transit Museum was started in 1973 initially to save the last two Detroit Street Railways cars left in Detroit. Those 2 cars (whose numbers escape me at the moment) are still in the City of Detroit. Currently one former Detroit PCC streetcar is in custody of MTM. It is the only Detroit PCC that was known to return and is in DSR livery. There are two DSR Peter Witts One at the Ilinois Railway museum and the other at the Ohio Railway Museum.

Currently the Michigan Transit Museum operates approximately 4 miles of trackage. Equipment currently in operation includes an Alco S1, South Shore car 11, and GTW caboose 77058.

Hope some of this information helps.

Dave Sutter

Huckleberry Railroad
Weiser Railroad
Michigan Transit Museum

Michigan Transit Museum
sutterd@hotmail.com

Jan K. Lorenzen · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:28 pm

What happened to the DSR Peter Witt that was recently at Henry Ford? They offered it for sale a few years back. I also could have sworn they had a couple of other Detroit cars there.

>The Michigan Transit
> Museum was started in 1973 initially to save
> the last two Detroit Street Railways cars
> left in Detroit. Those 2 cars (whose numbers
> escape me at the moment) are still in the
> City of Detroit. Currently one former
> Detroit PCC streetcar is in custody of MTM.
> It is the only Detroit PCC that was known to
> return and is in DSR livery. There are two
> DSR Peter Witts One at the Ilinois Railway
> museum and the other at the Ohio Railway
> Museum.

janklorenzen@msn.com

Evan · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:34 pm

That Peter Witt is now at IRM.

n2xjk@yahoo.com

JimBoylan · **Posted:** Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:32 am

> What happened to the DSR Peter Witt that was recently at Henry Ford? <

The Ford museum sold it to an organization (Illinois Rwy. Museum) with loops, that might be more likely to use a single-end car! (I guess that's part of why Branford lost out on it, but we already have a Peter Witt that we don't use much.)

104577.651@compuserve.com

Wesley Paulson · **Posted:** Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:07 pm

What happened to the two work cars mentioned in this thread? I know about the PCC at MTM. I recall a story in Traction and Models years ago.

Jan K. Lorenzen · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:03 am

> That Peter Witt is now at IRM.

Hi Evan -
I'll have to dig out the paperwork that I recieved from HFM a few years back about the offer. I could be mistaken, but I remember HFM had two Detroit Peter Witts, different types, so one had to go. That's the one that's at IRM, its in a very good home.

janklorenzen@msn.com

Frank Hicks · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:24 am

> I'll have to dig out the paperwork that I
> recieved from HFM a few years back about the
> offer. I could be mistaken, but I remember
> HFM had two Detroit Peter Witts, different
> types, so one had to go. That's the one
> that's at IRM, its in a very good home.

As far as I know, the Ford Museum only ever had one Peter Witt. They acquired Detroit Street Railway #3865 in the 1950's and owned it until they sold it to IRM about five years or so ago, but I don't think they ever owned any others and I'm certain they don't own any other Witts now. They did deaccess one of their two horsecars to a museum in - if memory serves - Troy, NY, and they also traded a 4-4-0 (of which they had several) to IRM for a 2-8-0.

Frank Hicks

F-Hicks@wiu.edu