California Trolley and Railroad Corporation has a new website, with dozens of new photos showing their present projects in San Jose, plus a great many historical photos showing 4-6-2 2479, the Lenzen roundhouse, etc.. Well worth a long oook or coming back for repeat visits.

http://www.ctrc.org/
ryarger@rypn.org

I find the section on their corporate history most interesting. It seems they had political connections work to their favor for some time, but then these, and the local economy, have soured somewhat. Losing a million dollar grant has to take a lot of wind out of their sails.

I am left wondering why there has to be so many rail organizations in the Bay Area? Probably within a half hour drive of the CTRC are 4 or 5 standard and narrow gauge museum/tourist railroads. Within two hours you probably could add another half dozen rail preservation organizations. Not only are these places competing for the stressed-out tourist dollar, they are competing for volunteers and funding. I think diversity can be good, but might it be time to contemplate consolidating some of the museums around the Bay Area?


Development of the CTRC

Yes the Bay Area has plenty of operations, but it gives variety and they all seem to be doing well. We should be happy the area is so blessed with these, also mostly-steam, operations...not complaining that there are "too many". Sure you can have too much of a good thing, with some things...but not with railroads. It doesn't really make sense for any of these groups to consolidate as they have nothing in common whatsoever and are different. Example, the Western Ry Museum is devoted to the Sacramento Northern and trolleys. The CTRC is devoted to trolleys in San Jose and the 2479. The GGRM is mostly for the SP and the peninsula railroad activity. The Ardenwood group preserves narrow gauge, in particular the South Pacific Coast and the Carter Brothers car company. The Pacific Locomotive Association's Niles Canyon Railway preserves everything else that they can, and they saved much equipment from smaller operations that the larger museums probably wouldn't have been interested in as much. To list the ones in the immediate Bay Area, the only ones are the Golden Gate Railroad Museum (SP 2472 and excursions), Niles Canyon Railway (various steam/diesel/etc), Western Ry Museum (no steam anymore, in Suisun City area), the CTRC (right now, just a trolley operation and the stuff in storage and restoration). I may be missing some but that's mostly it. Perhaps the Western RR Museum would get its WP equipment up to Portola since that's their main focus, instead of it sitting at a mostly trolley museum where it has a 1 percent chance of operation again.

There is also the Market Street Railway company, Muni's historical streetcars, and the cable cars. While they are maybe more than a half hour from SF, I might also add the two operations in Felton/Santa Cruz, the Napa Valley wine train, and perhaps the Skunk Train to Bay Area attractions. Let alone a significant number of miniature railroads.

> Yes the Bay Area has plenty of operations,
> but it gives variety and they all seem to be
> doing well. We should be happy the area is
> so blessed with these, also mostly-steam,
> operations...not complaining that there are
> "too many". Sure you can have too
> much of a good thing, with some things...but
> not with railroads.

I understand this, but this was not my point. You could also use the same argument to say that everything is worth preserving, even if you don't have the resources to do so, or the vision to get there. I am not complaining that there are too many, but wondering if having this many is sustainable in the long run. While each organization is very different (probably as reflective of the personalities running it, as their history and mission) there certainly is overlap. It would seem that the PLA, CTRC and GGRM collections would enhance each other. The trolley portion of CTRC seems to have a good home at the city park. The only reason WRM is deaccesioning its steamroad stuff is a corporate decision to become a trolley-based museum. I think that it is fine to do so, perhaps even wise, but wonder if it might rename itself in the process (WERM?) and rid itself of the wonderful heavyweight parlor in which they like to serve meals.

Well, I imagine there will probably never be such a regional drive to consolidate, because each group will try to maximize its position and do the best they can, alone with what they have.

It doesn't really make
> sense for any of these groups to consolidate
> as they have nothing in common whatsoever
> and are different.

So, to me, the natural response reinforces the status quo rather than wonders at what might be. That's fine, but CTRC is looking for a home, and the GGRM is on a beautiful military base. How far is Ardenwood from Niles Canyon? Combining resources and reinforcing tourist draw only makes sense to me. Example Strasburg/RRPA, Steamtown/ECTM, EBT/Shade Gap. I am sure there are others.

I appreciate your feedback, and wish that each museum is fantastically successful. I am just wondering if there is anything that might be said about the compatibility of various groups. In my experience, quite often each is out for itself and egos drive the preservation process. Maybe the formation of the great state-owned museum takes away from such an effort on a private scale.


Development of the CTRC

The Skunk line is a good 3-1/4 hours from San Francisco and about 5 from San Jose, so its more of a north coast attraction. Felton is located about an hour and a half from San Francisco, though it is classified as the Monterey Bay Area. Though Roaring Camp is narrow gauge and built along the SPC line, Ardenwood is the museum to that. Ardenwood may be in the Fremont area, at the other side from Niles, but it doesn't make sense for them to combine. Plus Ardenwood is mainly just a horse-drawn railway except when it has visiting steam one weekend a year and its critter internal combustion lokies. As for consolidation, the Sierra, Yolo Shortline, and CWR Skunk are all consolidated now (not the steam Sierra though). The PLA and the GGRM sort of consolidated in the sense that both of the Pacifics are now kept at Hunter's Point rather than seperate locations. There is not any indoor storage for it however. The CTRC needs to stay in the San Jose area to preserve the San Jose railroading legacy. The Lenzen Ave Roundhouse and Market Street depot reconstruction will allow for plenty of indoor storage, perhaps the 2467 could be kept with 2479 undercover while the 2472 already has an enginehouse at the Hunter's Point GGRM location. What significance would the Lenzen Ave. roundhouse have in San Francisco, and where would they put it? Not to mention, the Bayshore Roundhouse in Brisbane is still there...rotting away in arrested decay. That would have made a fine RR museum.

> I appreciate your feedback, and wish that
> each museum is fantastically successful. I
> am just wondering if there is anything that
> might be said about the compatibility of
> various groups. In my experience, quite
> often each is out for itself and egos drive
> the preservation process. Maybe the
> formation of the great state-owned museum
> takes away from such an effort on a private
> scale.

Olin,
I understand your inquiry.

Despite the close proximity of the three Bay Area organizations (within a 25 mile radius), each are separated by three competitive geographic political environments: Santa Clara (CTRC), Alameda (PLA) and San Francisco (GGRM) counties. Survival of each organization in our high land value region (prices can exceed $1M an acre!) has depended on its ability to gain support from its local governing entity. Each organization must compete with other lobbying factions to gain, and maintain, any semblance of local entity support. This constant lobbying for support is resource draining for each organization.

Compounding a combined solution, our Bay Area governing entities do not necessarily work together. Historically, Bay Area counties have difficulty agreeing how to handle "real" regional problems, such as traffic and affordable housing. Successfully lobbying these various local government entities for a regional historical rail attraction is doubtful.

What does the future hold?

With 6.5+ million residents, a world wide tourist destination and strong, though cyclical, economy, our region has the ability to support its various historic rail attractions. IMHO, there will be increased "coordination" as the groups mature. The personal egos which may have historically separated individuals within each organization has been disappearing. Where and when applicable the respective mechanical crews have always managed to work together toward sharing tools or purchasing similar parts for the three SPacifics.

CTRC remains committed toward our 20 years effort of establishing a local railroad museum in our community. Our perservation neighbors understand the complexities of our situation just as we understand theirs. If resolution of our own effort involves and benefits another railroad preservation group, we will welcome the opportunity, if it arises.

Regards,
Ken Middlebrook
Vice President
California Trolley and Railroad Corporation

> With 6.5+ million residents, a world wide
> tourist destination and strong, though
> cyclical, economy, our region has the
> ability to support its various historic rail
> attractions. IMHO, there will be increased
> "coordination" as the groups
> mature. The personal egos which may have
> historically separated individuals within
> each organization has been disappearing.
> Where and when applicable the respective
> mechanical crews have always managed to work
> together toward sharing tools or purchasing
> similar parts for the three SPacifics.

Sometimes it is hard to realize that California has a greater population than all of Canada. California is one of the "hot beds" of railway preservation groups. This is probably because of the population and the diverse nature of the state and its population.

When you count up the preservation activities another "hot bed" seems to be Pennsylvania.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

To make a long story short, these groups exist as they do because of the differences between the individuals involved; historical differences in some cases going back fifty years or more.

As a prime example, BAERA and PLA once shared the Rio Vista Jct site. While their goals were similar, egos and personalities clashed and PLA packed up and went to the Castro Point location. To this day, that friction still exists between certain individuals and that taints the organizational relationships. Cordiality may be a public face, but out of the spotlight it's venom and attitude.

In BAERA's case, that's all the more a waste as with 21 miles of railroad, there is and was plenty of room for operations of steam, diesel and electrics. They've just chosen a particular focus. How it plays with the public in the long run is another debate.

And don't be misled. BAERA is "trading" equipment to FRS to have it gone from the property so there will be no temptation for the "wrong" (a.k.a steam and diesel) sort of people at RVJ. The only reason they'll hold onto the WP steam locomotives and mainline passenger equipment is to keep others from having it.

And PLA has done very well in the Niles location. Drawing from major population centers on both ends of the line likely will establish them as a premier railway preservation center in the long run. The former SP line through the canyon is a very scenic ride and just right in length.

It is pretty much the same story of all of the groups in the area. Cooperation just isn't something they are good at. Ego's won't let that happen too often.



teamzurg@earthlink.net

The only reason they'll hold onto the
> WP steam locomotives and mainline passenger
> equipment is to keep others from having it.

This is a disturbing remark. Two steam locomotives, one which is in good mechanical shape due to operation not too long ago, would make them a prime addition to a collection such as the FRRS/Portola who is trolley-free and is concentrating on the WP rather than the Sac Northern/Key System/and Bay Area electric lines. The Portola group is going to be stuck running a little 0-6-0 switcher with the WP when two much larger, and perhaps the most famous and still in good shape #94, can be out on the tracks again if some people put their egos on the backburner and did what is best for these locomotives. Be altruistic railroaders here folks, do whats best for these engines...not whats best for you.

On that note, anybody know the status of the old Castro Point trackage that the PLA lost its lease on back in 1985? It was beautiful with the bay right there and everything.

The tracks are still there, but need lots of maintenance, of course.

The old Navy fuel depot at Point Molate has been transferred to the City of Richmond for development. The old Winehaven winery and some of the naval housing at Point Molate are now on the National Register of Historic Places. As for development of the remaining area, one proposal is for an Indian gambling casino. How this proposal (or any other development proposal) would mesh with a railroad museum is a good question.

It certainly would be a spectacular place for a museum.

> On that note, anybody know the status of the
> old Castro Point trackage that the PLA lost
> its lease on back in 1985? It was beautiful
> with the bay right there and everything.


http://www.berkeleydaily.org/article.cfm?archiveDate=06-11-04&storyID=19032

I couldn't stay silent here when it comes to California and California railroads. I had always wondered about the old Castro Point Railway. I was a frequent visitor to the Niles operation and always got into long conversations with the bookstore folks who were very informative and friendly; as well as very proud of the organization's history. They showed me some old pictures including the M-200 Skunk railcar painted burgundy and other things. I have always wanted to research and scrounge up photos of the Castro Point for a little booklet I planned on writing on Northern CA steam operations (most of which started in the 50s/60s) such as the PLA, Roaring Camp, Super Skunk with the 2-6-6-2 and the #45 2-8-2, West Side and Cherry Valley, etc. Even when it lacked a proper station and facilities, before the Sunol station was moved there (I never saw it finished) and there was just a little ticket kiosk, this was still one of my favorite RRs to go visit because it had such a neat history and so much stuff to see. It's been 3 years but I do remember the coaches, dating to the 1920s and previous, were always in great restored shape. It is great to see that the tracks are getting extended, and that there in the future will be more steam in the Canyon joining the Quincy #2. When Clover Valley #4 runs in the Canyon, I'll make an out-of-the-way trip there just to see it. I heard that the #12 will only be used for short distances (after all, its a 101 year old Shay) but operation is still planned. Best of luck to the PLA and their future endeavours.

As for casinos, yes I hear California has gotten into a mess with the Indian casinos as well. We are fighting off casinos here right now in New York. Foxwoods, the largest casino in its area, has ruined a community and we don't want that happening to ours. I was not aware of the Richmond casino, but I was aware of the Me-Wuk casino plans for the old West Side lumber mill site which may from what I heard be partnered with a tourist steam operation on the site. A lot of people here say that when the casinos leave the designated gambling zones such as Reno/Tahoe, Las Vegas, Atlantic City, etc...that people won't go and visit these places anymore when gambling is availible locally. It would destroy the gambling communities, and in turn destroy ours. In short, if these casinos open up everywhere in close proximity, they'll all go bust. Anyways, enough of the casino rant.

Talking about steam hot spots, here's a list of California steam operations from the top of my head in the three most notable steam railroad hot-spot states; California, Colorado, and Pennsylvania. California beats them all out, but Pennsylvania is close. I am only counting operational steamers, or railroads that usually use steam anyways. Plus California also probably has the most start-up operations planned and restorations occuring!

FULL-SCALE
California Western "Skunk Train" (Sierra-Fort Bragg)
Sacramento River Train (Sierra-Former Yolo Shortline, Woodland-West Sac)
Railtown 1897 (Jamestown)
Roaring Camp & Big Trees (3' gauge, Felton)
Niles Canyon Railway (PLA-Sunol (Fremont)
Yosemite Mountain Sugar Pine (3' gauge, Fish Camp (Yosemite)
Fillmore & Western (Fillmore)
Disneyland (3' gauge Anaheim)
Knotts Berry Farm (3' gauge D&RG and RGS, Buena Park)
Sacramento Southern (CSRM)
McCloud River Railroad (McCloud)
Yreka Western Railroad (Yreka-steam down)
San Diego Railroad Museum (Campo-steam down)
Nevada County Traction Co. (3' gauge steam-status unknown, was operable)
Northern Counties Logging Museum ("Falk", etc)

EXCURSION ENGINES
SP 2472 (San Francisco, GGRM)
SP 2467 (San Francisco, formerly Oakland, owned by PLA)
AT&SF 3751 (San Bernardino)

MINIATURE STEAM (12" gauge and larger)
Billy Jones Wildcat Railroad (18" Gauge, Los Gatos)
San Francisco Zoo (22" Gauge, San Francisco)
Sonoma Traintown (15" Gauge, Sonoma)
Redwood Valley Railway (15" gauge, Berkeley)
HH&YV Railway (Cover's Apple Ranch-15" gauge, Tuolumne)
Swanton Pacific (not scheduled public operation-19" Gauge, Davenport)
Hillcrest & Wahtoke (15" Gauge, Reedley)
Orland Newville & Pacific (15" Gauge, Orland)
Folsom Valley Railway (12" Gauge, Folsom)
Knotts Berry Farm (24" gauge Crown, Buena Park, if that counts...)

Plus don't forget the museums that had/will have steam or new railroads in progress with steam, and this is just a list off the top of my head here. Here's some more comparison:

PENNSYLVANIA STEAM
Strasburg Railroad (Strasburg)
New Hope & Ivyland Railroad (New Hope)
Wanamaker Kempton & Southern (Kempton)
East Broad Top (Rockhill Furnace)
Middletown & Hummelstown Railroad (Middletown)
Pioneer Tunnel Coal Mine (Ashland)
Reading & Northern
and Knox Kane & Kinzua
(I'm being generous as they don't have any steam operable at present)

PA MINIATURE STEAM
Strasburg Railroad 15" gauge Cagney (Strasburg)
SHAY Railroad (Rough and Tumble-Kinzers)
Little Toot (Rough and Tumble-Kinzers, 15" gauge Crown)
Hersheypark (24" gauge Crowns-Hershey, if that counts)
City Island Railroad (24" gauge Crown-Harrisburg, if that counts)
Knoebels (16" gauge Crown-Elysburg, if that counts)

This would put Pennsylvania in 2nd place of steam in general. California still beats it out, both places.

COLORADO STEAM (note no operational standard gauge steam, that I know of anyways)
Georgetown Loop Railroad (3' gauge, fate unknown, Silver Plume)
Durango & Silverton (3' gauge, Durango)
Colorado Railroad Museum (3' gauge, steam down, Golden)
Cumbres & Toltec (3' gauge, Antonito)
Cripple Creek & Victor (2' gauge, Cripple Creek)

CO MINIATURE STEAM:
Tiny Town (15" gauge, Morrison, 3 steamers)
Comanche Crossing & Eastern (15" gauge, Strasburg, 2 or 3 steamers)
Lakeside Park (22" gauge, Denver, 2 Cagney steamers)

Also Washington State used to have LOTS of steam operating say 1970s, 80s. It still has some, but the Snoqualmie operation and Camp 6 with the Klickitat shay (and the Lake Whatcom) have had steam down for years now.

Keep Steaming,
Ed Kelley

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

Ed,

A note about the Nevada County Traction Co. Currently they are operating their 2-6-2 only a handful of times a year. Even then its never to pull anything or in any sort of "service".

You can also add the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Museum in Nevada City to your list. We now have our Porter 0-4-0 (Sacramento Brick #1) operational and its been steamed up a few times this year. We are still trying to figure out what days we plan to steam up.

-=Andrew=-

> The only reason they'll hold onto the

> This is a disturbing remark. Two steam
> locomotives, one which is in good mechanical
> shape due to operation not too long ago,
> would make them a prime addition to a
> collection such as the FRRS/Portola who is
> trolley-free and is concentrating on the WP
> rather than the Sac Northern/Key System/and
> Bay Area electric lines. The Portola group
> is going to be stuck running a little 0-6-0
> switcher with the WP when two much larger,
> and perhaps the most famous and still in
> good shape #94, can be out on the tracks
> again if some people put their egos on the
> backburner and did what is best for these
> locomotives. Be altruistic railroaders here
> folks, do whats best for these engines...not
> whats best for you.

The 94 is really just worn out. The boiler shell is a major unknown, and it needs tubes, flues and superheaters. And there are major issues with the running gear. It's nothing that can't be fixed, but the locomotive won't see steam without a lot of work, anywhere. And don't forget all the required paperwork (Form 4) and new regulations to be met.

And the same for 334. It may not be as bad as some folks have lead people to believe over the years, but it's no piece of cake to make right either. As much as I applaud the efforts at Portola, either project would be a daunting task for any group.

Be glad both locomotives are stored indoors for now. At least they are safe.




teamzurg@earthlink.net

> You can also add the Nevada County Narrow
> Gauge Museum in Nevada City to your list. We
> now have our Porter 0-4-0 (Sacramento Brick
> #1) operational and its been steamed up a
> few times this year. We are still trying to
> figure out what days we plan to steam up.

Thanks for the info, this is good to see another steamer operational and narrow gauge nonetheless. I didn't know that the museum had trackage or anything. I should probably include it, regardless of status, in the old guide here which I am updating for a 3rd edition with major revision. Whenever the website gets updated or someone can send some stuff, please contact me directly at the above e-mail address. There's a page for each attraction, with a photo of the train in operation (I usually ask for a few shots to choose the best one) and information, plus run dates and fares/suggested donation for rides. Basic stuff but given when I get this out of the local publisher and on to a bigger playing field it might get some visitors to the museum. The #5 looks good I see, I had heard Universal did something to the boiler which is why it doesn't operate anymore, no idea. I always saw Jerry Best's book at Borders on the NCNG but never did get it, it was some neat railroad. The #9 story is also pretty interesting, it would be something else if it was still out there. On another subject with Porter 0-4-0Ts (this one being standard gauge), Erich Thomsen of the Redwood Valley Railway 5" scale 15" gauge fame owned a Porter 0-4-0 which was supposedly owned by the Key System and used to pull dead trains off the bay bridge when there was problems with the electric third rail arrangement. He may have also owned more full-size locomotives. This 0-4-0T was used at Bob Gray's Virginia & Truckee restoration in Virginia City, Nevada for a season or so maybe 1978 but I do not know what happened to it afterwards. An engine at Bob Kirtlan's Silverbend Farm in Clarksburg, CA looks very similar, but people have told me it is not the V&T #3 0-4-0T or so it was known for a brief time.

Thanks and Keep Steaming,
Ed Kelley
ON TRACK with Ed Kelley

ON TRACK with Ed Kelley
ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com