The History Channel is running ads this (9/19) evening that "Deep Sea Detectives" will be investigating the two sunken locomotives off the New Jersey coast (which have been discussed here before) tomorrow night at 9:00.

Just saw, good show and put together well. I find myself watching this show alot any way. I hope its on again soon though. It would be tough to rise those locomotives, I don't think that will ever happen. I would like to to see the B&M Pacific on the NH/ME border. Once again though most likly not happening

-Justin Franz

Their railroad expert was Jim Wilke. He has worked for the Gene Autry museum in Los Angeles, the Railroad Museum of Pennsilvania, and is currently doing work for CSRM. He is responsible for the "new" paint jobs on the two locomotives at the Golden Spike National Monument.

The most recent "Prospector" the magazine of the D&RGW Historic Society has an article by Jim on early Baldwin paint.

There is absolutly no one who knows more about early locomotive paint. There are few who could come close to his knowlage of early railroad technology, history or practice.

They couldn't have chosen a better expert.

I thought the show was rather poorly done, but the subject matter is certainly interesting. I don't think their conclusion that the locomotives rolled off a ships deck is correct. The position and condition of the locomotives does support that at all. The chances of them landing ten feet apart, upright and apparently undamaged is one in a trillion. The box of parts nearby also suggests that they remained strapped to whatever they were floating on. A barge in the 1850's could have been virtually all wood and there may be nothing left of it. The box may have been made of some type of wood or treated wood not tasty to ocean critters since it is partially intact. A few pieces of wood on the Titantic have survived for the same reason.
Raising the locomotives would be a fairly routine salvage operation but preserving them would be a long drawn out affair. As soon as they hit the air they will disentegrate rapidly.
Mike

Again, having dealt with these people personally, (including sadly, their former Australian host who died in a diving accident not long after the Regina episode), I have a different take. The 60 minute format leaves much to be desired, but in their favor was the following:

1.) They did NOT dumb this down in comparison with a lot of
other "history" shows -- the went for a middle ground to be sure, but
there was a fair amount of techincal data presented as well as "story".
2.) They found and ACTUAL rail historian/ expert, who knew SPECIFICALLY
about those kind of locomotives.
3.) They ACTUALLY found the closest surviving/ existing locomotive to
these, not some random shot of the Allegeheny at Henry Ford or
something.
4.) They treated all the rail experts with EXTREME respect in comparison
to the "strange rail-buff" thing we get from most newspapers.
5.) We got to see a locomotive that is usually hidden from view.
6.) Yes, it was fast, but even they admitted that LONG hours in the
archives are how a lot of these stories are found. This is the ONLY
show I have ever seen consistently do that, and there was some real
lamenting going on that records weren't saved. Maybe, just maybe, that
will sink in to people. I dount it, but maybe.
7.) Some each coast rail groups got some badly-needed publicity, albeit
brief.

All in all, this is entertainment, and if you thought it was anything else, you are off your rocker. As enterntainment goes, this is a whole lot better than most, and I wouldn't have had any problem with my four year old seeing it, and other than brief moments screaming at the t.v. saying "LOOK FOR THE @#$%&^ BUILDER"S PLATE on the @#$%$^ SMOKEBOX!!!!!!!", I think they were respecful and, dare I say, educational to the majority of us (nuts-and-bolts aside).


TJG

I was not able to see it last night. But, I have a videotape of it here on my desk, and I am hoping I get to see it tonight.

I was one of several individuals on a mailing list that has been in contact with the NJ Dive group since they found the locomotives two years ago.

We advised them quite early in the discovery process to investigate the smokebox, saddle, and cylinders for writing or a builder's plate. There is quite a bit of growth on the engine, but nothing is visible.

I'm sure they also realize that having both engines fall off and land together would be quite an odd occurance. But, even ancient Roman and Greek wrecks from thousands of years ago still have wood remaining; having it all disappear in 150 years also seems quite unlikely. Not only has some wood from the Titanic survived, but a few pieces of rope as well!

That is why the event that led to the two engines sitting together on the ocean floor is so difficult to explain.

I would think that if we can raise the remains of the U.S.S. Monitor, we could raise these locomotives as well. In the meantime, I am looking forward to see the video. Video just works so much better underwater, when the depth of field is so short.

It would be neat if someone filmed them using the same 3-D IMAX camera used on the Titanic for the film Ghosts of the Abyss The images of the Titanic in that production are gripping, to say the least.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

I agree whole heartedly with you TJ. To Mike from above, being a technical diver myself just like those in the program, I believe you are mistaken. The whole one a trillion thing is way off. In fact the chances are really very decent of an occurrance such as the way those engines went down. While a lot in the show is fluff and waaaaaaaay over dramatized, they did have some good science. They did search for metal fragments or relics in the field surrounding the locomotives and nothing was found except that box of parts. There would have been metal parts had there been a barge. Something, bolts, screws, stanchions, AN ANCHOR or any number of other debris. That field was pretty clean. Even though I have never been to this site, I am relatively certain that they were out there on their own. Also, even though these engines were big 2-2-2's, if the boilers were closed up good, when they went off it is not outside reason to think they could have possibly floated for a bit of time, due to the large airspace inside the boiler off-setting the negative bouyancy of the steel, gradually filled with water and ended up nice and pretty sitting straight up on the bottom. A long shot, yes... but possibly. Stranger stuff has happened. I too though was screaming at the TV and wanting to call up Chatterton and yell at him for not just looking for a builder's plate (their words: "Maker's Mark") Anyway, anybody who wants to go see them for themselves hit me up! I'm a Scuba instructor. That dive is well within recreational sport diving limits, then just take a boat ride and make your own determinations. I'm not sure if you are aware, but the Cambrian Foundation and the US Navy have over the last several years raised the steam engine and turret section of the USS Monitor from civil war fame. This recovery was from over 200 feet of water and peices much larger than those locomotives. The raising of those 2-2-2's is doable. Just have to find the $$$ for it. Anybody want to step up? I can handle the logistics and diving.... He he he!
Ryan Parkevich

I was wondering if anyone had the website address of the dive / project group?

I remember about a year ago, either on RYPN or the old Railroad.net, the head of the project was asking for assistance in determining the history of the Locomotives, and had posted the project's website.

Unfortunately I have misplaced the bookmark, so I was hoping someone else had filed it better then I had.

Thanks,

Rich C.

If someone is really serious about this salvage with a bit of luck it might be done for very modest cash out lays, though a fair amount of patience and political log rolling would be required. The Monitor parts were raised from Navy funds in the training/R&D budget. The way it works is that the Navy salvage community needs to practice heavy salvage so when something comes along they have the experience and current procedures to tackle it. So they will engage in these sorts of recoveries as long as there a non-profit sponsoring it. First step is find a museum that will take the lead, the more prestigious the better. Smithsonian or B&O would have the right ring, but a major state RR museum or large NRHS chapter could work. What you need is ability to write letters on their letter head to the appropriate congressional delegation and the Navy's Diving and Salvage command(s). The effort is very much like grant writing complete with a complete plan for disposition of the engines after recovery and a statement of their historical significance. Here is a good URL to start.

http://wwwnt.cnet.navy.mil/ndstc/

If a member of an organization were contact the Public Affairs Officer a this command, he/she might be able to give you some pointers to make your effort more effective. Patience is required and persistence to have the recovery blessed. I would guess it would take as little as two to as much as five years for the paperwork to wend its way through the bureaucracy. And if someone doesn't call on a regular bases, all progress will stop. Once approved, someone will need to coordinate with the Navy because these sorts of projects are done on a "time available" and "not to interfere" bases with military operations, i.e. the salvage would be at the bottom of the priority list. But when they did do it, they would show up with the heavy lift cranes, barges and ships to make it happen. The WW&F trestle replacement by the Marine Engineering battalion is a good example this. The WW&F had quite a photo essay on the Marines' work on the web site at one time, but I just checked and can't find it now.

I expect the museum or group would have to fund the transportation from a dock to a site for conservation as well as funding the conservation. More grant writing!

Ed

At ninety feet not really much of a navigation hazard. Most big ships pull 20-30 feet of draft. Maybe 40 with truly enormous ships. Probably more a hazard to snagging fishing rigging. Most east coast wrecks will attest to this as they are often covered in nets and line which can be a tremendous hazard to us divers. Just a note, I don't want to cause a stir on this, I know I am new here, theory of displacement: if the weight of the water the item displaces weighs more than the weight of the item, it floats if not it sinks. Those boilers ( I haven't even thought of trying the math on this) could have (Maybe) displaced enough water for a minute or two, the heaviest part of the engines roll to the lowest point - wheels and frame down - if there is any rigging tying them together at all, that keeps them close and down they go for a race on the bottom. Just my little pet theory... Too fun! After all this, I think I'm going to have to take a trip over to New York to check this one out for myself, but today I'm headed over to Morgan Run to work on LS&I #33at the OHCR. Ryan P.