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Liberty Liner Status?
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Author:  wilkinsd [ Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Liberty Liner Status?
Any update on Rockhill's decision to sell the Liberty Liner? I saw it in 1995 and it was still stored outside, has it been moved inside in the meantime? I'm happy that the members of Rockhill are trying to find it a new home so they can focus on other projects, and also get the Liberty Liner in other responsible hands.

David
Author:  Randy Hees [ Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
When I saw it in June of 2002 it was inside. It was complete but rough. It showed the effects of years of use and modifications.

It was still amazing to walk through it.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
Just went by Rockhill yesterday and got a full shop tour.

The Liberty Liner is stored in the big car barn down the line from the rest of the Museum. It ran in under its own power in 1996 and has been there since. The china used in its "dinner train" service is still stacked inside.

The Rockhill Trolley Museum has made the decision to offer the car for sale/trade to qualified preservationists. The RTM is only, according to the official I spoke with, looking to recover the costs of getting the car where it is--somewhere in the middle-to-high five figures. The set is just so blasted big, uses so much power, has no room to run at RTM, and take up a lot of space. It needs minor mechanical work and some cosmetic work--a fresh paint job, some sheet metal/bondo, some window frames, a general clean-up and reconditioning--nothing compared to some long-term wooden-car projects, but still a sizable project simply because of the 156' length.

My "partner in crime" took numerous photos of the car in the shop; if anyone needs data or photos, contact me and I will forward them as appropriate.
Author:  Bob Kutella [ Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
Some interesting history. When SEPTA offered them for sale, IRM bid on both liners, the second one almost a courtesy bid to try to make sure it did not get scrapped. We were notified that our bid on the unit (CNS&M 803-804) at $10,000 was successful. Later there was some confusion about a bid deposit and our bid was rejected in favor of a $6,000 bid by RTY. Of course I am sure that they spent several times that amount moving it to their site.


Bob Kutella
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Fate?
According to the official I talked to, the off-the-top-of-the-head, "ball-park" figure for acquisition, transportation, and subsequent repairs/materials is probably somewhere in the $50,000 range. Now, in theory, one could start adding interest, "storage costs", etc. I think the final "price" would have to depend, of course, on what's offered by whom. I certainly couldn't blame them if, for example, they accepted an offer of trucks, motors, and parts from a fellow trolley museum over the bid of a restaurant owner that wanted to set up an "interurban diner". But, as with any such offers, money talks.

Unfortunately, what with a nicely restored Electroliner at IRM, the lack of a competent trolley museum in the Philadelphia region despite decades of trying, and the fact that the Liberty Liners as such were anomalies on the Norristown line (being little used), one could make the distinct argument that the best fate for this train set would be just what I sarcastically noted above: a restaurant display in a restaurant in the Philadelphia/Norristown area. It's certainly a nice train set, but it's neither representative of classic Pennsylvanian interurban/trolley operation nor distinctly suitable for any serious trolley museum operation, unless one were to, for example, operate it as a shuttle between a parking lot and a major tourist attraction.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey, wait a minute.........
Quote:
It's certainly a nice train set, but it's neither representative of classic Pennsylvanian interurban/trolley operation nor distinctly suitable for any serious trolley museum operation, unless one were to, for example, operate it as a shuttle between a parking lot and a major tourist attraction.


..... did I just inadvertently describe the Electric City operation between Scranton and Montage Mountain/Moosic, Pa.?
Author:  jdstrolley [ Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
The Rockhill Trolley Museum in Rockhill Furnace, PA is still soliciting offers for the Liberty Liner, Independence Hall. As mentioned in a previous post the train is stored indoors in our Carbarn Two. This is a very historic piece of railway equipment, one of only two built. It has been part of our collection since 1982.

Interested parties serious about acquiring the train should contact the museum through its website www.rockhilltrolley.org for additional information and photographs. We hope to find a new home for the Liberty Liner in which there is an appreciation of the historic nature of this train.

Joel Salomon, President
Rockhill Trolley Museum
www.rockhilltrolley.org
Author:  Jim Vaitkunas [ Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
Traction Preservationists:

Could I also put in my 2-cents worth?

Yes, IRM's Electroliner is in very good shape. But, do we allow the other one to become a restaurant? It's arguable that the Electroliners were the epitome of interurban car development and technology (apologies to Illinois Terminal fans). But, even the suggestion that the car be converted to a restaurant seems repugnant to me. Yech!

I think that Electric City would be an excellent place for this rare gem. I am guessing that an existing barn would have to be constructed to house the monster. I would also opine that at this point, we don't need to consider operating the car just preserving it cosmetically. Maybe a TEA-21 (or whatever the next round is called) grant would be in order, both to build a barn and to cosmetically restore the car.

Is it feasible to disconnect half (or more?) of the motors so the beast doesn't draw as much current? I mean--we don't need to do 90mph (or even 45 mph) between the Museum and Montage Mountain. Or is the control circutry too complicated to be modified accordingly.

Another thought comes to mind. How about offering the Electroliner to the Smithsonian? Or better still, how about offering it to Chicago's Field Museum? Either place would mean the car would never operate again. But I think we're all in agreement that preserving the car is the first priority.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
I have no opposition to those who want to find this train a great home. Part of my point, however, is that one trainset already exists at the IRM as a North Shore relic. If this other trainset's preservation should be justified, it ought to be saved as the other half of its history--a Liberty Liner.

Regrettably, however, events over the decades have conspired to see to it that the nearest museums "worthy" of this train's preservation are either Scranton or Rockhill--and both have big pros and cons. I have NOT been to Electric City, and I have no idea whether transferring a Liberty Liner there would preserve a jewel or hand off an albatross. And I have trouble picturing who else could justify acquiring such a massive trainset--Seashore Trolley Museum already has too much stuff they can't handle rotting up there; maybe a case could be made for the RR Museum of Pennsylvania, the Museum of Transport in St. Louis, or the National RR Museum in Green Bay to add "interurban" to their representation, but is a Liberty/Electroliner truly representative?

Certainly the Field Museum or Chicago's Museum of Science & Industry, or the Smithsonian or the Franklin Institute, should consider acquisition of this piece. But of course, even if RTM gave them the car, they would still be obligated to commit somewhere around $100K for transport, restoration, and installation. (And that's only a quarter-a**ed guess--don't be surprised if it could turn into a million-buck project.) Put that against major freebie donations supported by industry donations, and it's not a likely proposal. (Example--BNSF subsidized the overhaul of MSI's massive layout to bring it from the early 20th century to the 21st century--in part because visitors deserved, in BNSF's opinion, to see railroading as it is today, not as a museum relic like a Congestoga wagon.)

I certainly would love to see the Liberty Liner preserved for even occasional leg-stretching operation--and as long as I'm dreaming, I want to ride a Bullet Car at 70 again. But realistically, that's not going to happen, unless someone finds gold under the right-of-way at Electric City in Scranton. (And, having professed ignorance of the Scranton operation, far be it from me to suggest what they do/acquire.) Neither, for that matter, is major preservation at a major museum, unless someone writes a big check. Given that, if some restaurant developer wants to pay the RTM $250K for the Liberty Liner, am I going to fault them for that? (Not that that's likely to happen, either.......)
Author:  tim o'm [ Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
What might the seating capacity be on a trainset such as this?
One of the looming problems for the Electric City trolley operation would be how to move a considerable amount of people from the baseball stadium to downtown Scranton. The current capacity for car no. 76 is 65, and I have yet to see no. 80 run, since there is usually only one crew on hand.

But, when the day comes that they would need this service, will one or two cars do the job? If this operation ever makes the transition from tourist ride to real transportation, they'll have to look at staffing, seating capacity, multiple cars on the line, in both directions, power capacity, and so on. The difficulty with a tourist trolley, or any other tourist ride, is that travelers don't care about intermediate stops as much as riding every bit of track on the line.
Author:  Phil Mulligan [ Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
We do have the track and power to handle a 'Liner and a 5-mile run for it to get loose. Yes, a 'Liner is not a typical Pennsylvania interurban but it's not a typical anywhere interurban. It's closer to the Reading Company's Crusader than to an LVT 800.

IRM can give a handle on how much it has cost to field their Electroliner as you see it today - and that was the better of the two. You have air conditioning, a kitchen, a dining compartment etc.
Author:  JimBoylan [ Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
Jim Vaitkunas wrote:
Traction Preservationists:
Is it feasible to disconnect half (or more?) of the motors so the beast doesn't draw as much current? I mean--we don't need to do 90mph (or even 45 mph) between the Museum and Montage Mountain. Or is the control circutry too complicated to be modified accordingly.


Electrically, it's a pair of 4 motor Multiple Unit cars. It seats about 144.
Scranton's substation is rumored to be as strong or even better than a Red Arrow substation, but I don't know how that compares to a P&W sub. It can make Red Arrow 76 reach its top speed of about 44 m.p.h.
One minor problem for the purist. The Pennsylvania version of an "Electroliner", the "Liberty Liner" is high level platform and 3rd rail only.
As for the diner idea, it already has food service facilities, but maybe not enough for the whole crowd.
Author:  eldiner [ Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Liner Status?
>As for the diner idea, it already has food service facilities, but maybe not enough for the whole crowd.

Not to worry, EL diner 741 is about a year away from returning to Scranton. We've got dining on the rails covered. However it would be fun to have an Electroburger!

Tim Stuy
www.eldcps.org
Author:  Phil Mulligan [ Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hey, wait a minute.........
Quote:
..... did I just inadvertently describe the Electric City operation between Scranton and Montage Mountain/Moosic, Pa.?


We're not a parking lot shuttle. Our Scranton station is shared with Steamtown and we aren't yet selling tickets to/from the Visitors' Centre in Moosic. The track's not in to the ballpark.
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