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| Open Letter on the Jim Thorpe Preservation Issue https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11247 |
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| Author: | robertjohndavis [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Open Letter on the Jim Thorpe Preservation Issue |
RYPN'ers... I have received tremendous feedback proving that the people of the Carbon County, PA area are ready to stop this debacle. As such, I think all letter writing and phone calls - of polite nature - are worthy. Think local, but also carry the message nationally. Do what you can and do it now if the preservation of these artifacts is of importance to you. I had a letter to the editor printed up there this past weekend, and this letter is going out to the newspapers, chapter, county and the R&LHS nationally. An Open Letter to Save The Railyard, Turntable and Historic Trains in Jim Thorpe, PA As a concerned student of railroad and anthracite industry history, I am appalled at the situation being played out in Jim Thorpe, PA. According to the Times News of Lehighton, PA, Carbon County and the Lackawanna Chapter of the non-profit Railway & Locomotive Historical Society are involved in a war of rhetoric that is presently headed towards the destruction of the historic turntable and railyard tracks in Jim Thorpe as soon as November 22nd. Plainly stated, the historical society is going to scrap these artifacts. Owners of historic rail cars and locomotives on the site have been warned to remove them from the property before the historical society's scrapping torches are lit. The tracks pass the 125 year-old depot (currently being restored as a visitor’s center), downtown Jim Thorpe, the switchback railroad grade and the Lehigh Canal - all of which are on the National Register of Historic Place. The turntable has been used to turn historic locomotives as recently as 5 years ago. The tracks are all operable. How this tragedy could come to be in one of most significant sites of America's industrial past is beyond belief. The Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS was donated both the tracks and turntable in the Jim Thorpe yards by their former owner. These tracks are used to display the numerous rail cars that are a vital part of the town's tourist appeal. Carbon County owns the land underneath along with the main track through town. With the lease on the land expiring at the end of this year, the Lackawanna Chapter offered the County three alternatives to scrapping the artifacts for cash profit. The County refused all three options, and neither party has opened negotiations. Thus, scrapping is near. I offer this open letter with a solution that serves the interest of the people of Carbon County, the tourism industry in town and R&LHS's long standing tradition of saving rail history by assuring the preservation of the site and the rail equipment displayed there. It is a three-step proposal. 1. The Lackawanna Chapter of the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society drops its demands for compensation (an inflated $250,000) and sells the track and turntable to the county for $1. The Chapter, according to media reports, was donated these assets which they now threaten to scrap. By selling the assets for $1, they serve the cause of history and keep this site intact. And they would not lose money since the artifacts were a gift. One would certainly hope that the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society would value the preservation of the assets more than the cash gained from scrapping this gift. 2. Carbon County accepts the $1 price. In exchange for not spending a large amount of money to acquire the assets, the County agrees to preserve and restore all the remaining rail assets in Jim Thorpe, including the very rare turntable. These assets have survived 50 years past the end of steam power on the rails, and the county has an excellent chance to capitalize on their restoration as an added attraction to Jim Thorpe's tourism industry (as has been done in North Conway, NH; Scranton, PA; Orbisonia, PA and other tourist towns with working railyards and turntables). Turntables have such general appeal that Montpelier, VT is turning an abandoned railyard with an intact turntable into a city park! Funding is available from numerous Federal and State programs for such projects. 3. The county agrees to store all historic rail equipment currently in Jim Thorpe until 12/31/2005 on the tracks in question, giving the multiple private owners a chance to negotiate continued long-term storage leases or arrange for proper removal of equipment. Trains on site include irreplaceable steam and diesel locomotives, cabooses, passenger cars and freight cars - many of which are currently operational and all of which are irreplaceable. If all parties can agree to these steps, they will also be agreeing that the greater good of history and tourism in Jim Thorpe trumps any other financial gain. Let us hope these parties will agree to this solution, or similar, before the railyard, turntable and trains that have been the core of Jim Thorpe tourism for 30 years - and its history for 150 years - are reduced to scrap in a town that defines our nation's industrial heritage. Sincerely, Rob Davis robertjohndavis@monmouth.com CC: Local newspapers, Carbon County Commissioners, LC of the R&LHS, national rail magazines and railroad historical societies |
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| Author: | Ron Goldfeder [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How Important are Turntables? |
How important are turntables to museums and tourist railroads? Important enough that since 1946 these are the numbers of them which have been moved for preservation: Moved turntables – 78; Moved and in use – 31; Tables moved twice – 12; Turntable not moved - 20; Moved and stored – 46; Recreated turntables – 13; Moved and scrapped - 7 The "not moved" number indicates tables taken over in place by museums or tourist lines. These numbers were developed over tha past year while working to protect the two we have at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis. |
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| Author: | Ron Goldfeder [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How Important are Turntables? |
I should have added some explanatory comments to the first post. These turntables are 2' gauge and up, with the 2' ones included because of the Maine narrow gauge lines. The first one saved I am aware of was moved from Bridgeton Jct, Me on the Bridgeton & Harrison to the Edaville RR in 1946. Most listings are for standard gauge tables, with the list being 16 pages long. In a few situations a listing is vague, pending confirmation of details, such as the status of the table from the Altoona, WI roundhouse. In others there are missing details as to the length of the table, or what railroad and location it came from, and when. Those wanting to see the full list can contact me off list and I will e-mail it to you. As with any such list I expect there are some errors and missing items, so any corrections or additions would be welcome. |
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| Author: | Tom Cornillie [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
The Jim Thorpe yard is important because it has been in continuious railroad use for over a century - and because it retains a significant amount of its track, the turntable and other structures related to servicing cars and locomotives. Granted there are other turntables in preservation and this turntable could be moved - however the best way to interpret its use and significance is to keep it in its original location. Also, I am not sure if this link particular article was mentioned before -- Andy Muller and Carbon County made a generous counter-offer to the Lackawanna Chapter in June: http://www.tnonline.com/archives/news/2004/06.23/carbon.html |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Open Letter on the Jim Thorpe Preservation Issue |
Rob, The letter and proposal it contains are wonderful. You have elevated the discussion beyond finger pointing and outrage and presented a possible solution. |
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| Author: | co614 [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
I certainly hope some solution can be found prior to the commencement of scrapping operations on 11/22, but must say that I think it's a long shot as all parties involved seem to have dug thier heels in and appear at least to be unmoveable? To correct an earlier post-neither the County, the C&S RR nor the R&N RR have ever made any offer for the track/turntable. In fact the Countys only written response to date was an August letter stating that they had no further interest in purchasing the track/turntable and advising the Chapter that it was fine with them(the County) if the Chapter made arrangements to have the assests scrapped. As there is duplicative trackage in the immediate area the loss of this trackage/turntable will not makle it impossible for the R&N to mount passgr. service from Jim Thorpe next year although without the table steam will not be practical. The most tragic loss will be if Mr. Harts old wooden coaches and his ex-CPR steamer fall to the scrapper on 11/22 as no alternative storage was arranged! Seems to me the onus is primarily on Carbon County to end this game of chicken or everyone is going to lose from this irreverseible loss! With little more than 3 weeks 'till 11/22 I hope sanity soon reigns? Ross Rowland |
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| Author: | Tom Cornillie [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
Quote: In re: To correct an earlier post-neither the County, the C&S RR nor the R&N RR have ever made any offer for the track/turntable.
I can only go by what I read in the press: http://www.tnonline.com/archives/sports/2004/06.25/rr.html "Andrew Muller, president of Reading, Blue Mountain and Northern and part owner of C&S Railroad, the company that manages the county's shortline railroad, estimated the lines were worth about $20,000. Muller offered to reimburse the county if it chooses to purchase them. Commissioner Charles Getz agreed with O'Gurek, saying he would like to hear what a consultant has to say, but Commissioner Wayne Nothstein said he thought Muller's price was reasonable and that the county should send the historical society a counter offer immediately. "What if the consultant says they're worth $50,000?" asked Nothstein. "Are we going to jack our offer up to $50,000 when we have an offer to reimburse us for $20,000?" Getz said he was certain Bubble would give them a fair price to offer for the tracks. " |
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| Author: | co614 [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
I asked the Sec'y of the Chapter 2 days ago and he stated that no party-not the County nor either Railroad had ever made an offer(either verbal nor written) for the track/turntable in any amount. The way I read the excerpt posted,the parties were having a discussion on thier "opinions" of what the track/turntable were worth-unfortunatly those discussions never turned into an offer. I have not done the necessary research to have a factual answer, but with the world scrap steel market at or near record highs(thanks in large part to extremely aggressive buying by the Chinese) my guess is that the aggregate tonnage of a mile plus of 100lb. rail plus a 100' turntable would bring many many times Mr. Muellers quoted estimate of $20-25,000??? My very rough guess would be somewhere in the area of $100-150,000 as is where is??? I'm told that the Chapters evaluation of $250,000 was based on "value in use" which was used for IRS purposes when the assets where donated by Mr. Hart. Regardless of the #'s,let's hope someone can broker a solution other than seeing it all end up in the melting furnace as now seems probable!! Ross Rowland |
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| Author: | tomgears [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
This is from the R&LH website: The role of the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society has since 1921 been and will continue to be, to preserve, promulgate and interpret the accomplishments of the railroad form of transportation down through history. Now my question is how does melting down this equipment fit into the above statement? Please someone from either the national or chapter R&LS please chime in. Tom Gears |
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| Author: | steamtown observer [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
I have been trying to find out real, impartial information on the Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS. However, this kind of information is hard to come by. They have not filed an IRS form 990 since their inception. This would not seem to be right based on the value of some of the donations and grants they have received, i.e. if your revenue is over $25,000 in any fiscal year you are obligated to file the form 990. Be that as it may, here is their official (as far as the IRS is concerned) address: LACKAWANNA CHAPTER OF THE RAILWAY & LOCOMOTIVE HISTORICAL SOCIETY 73 DEER RIDGE RD BASKING RIDGE, NJ 07920 This is probably the best address to send your letters to. |
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| Author: | tomgears [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | L&RHS and the IRS |
I have also inquired about this whole situation with someone in the accounting world. Here is what I have been told. Organizations are granted non-profit status based upon a set of guidelines set by the tax code. This exemption allows them to not pay taxes because they are helping the common good. If donations are not used properly for the stated purpose of existence of the group then the non-profit status can be revoked. Additionally the officers of the organization can and will be held personally liable for payment of tax found due on previously exempt income. This is in addition to any criminal charges that could come out of the situation. Some folks have drawn comparisons to this situation and the one that resulted in the destruction of Mr. Jensen’s locomotive by Metra. It is important to know that one main difference between this situation and the situation between the late Mr. Jensen and Metra is that the former situation was a private person and this situation involves a non-profit and that in itself will bring in the IRS. According to my tax person this situation could very well lead to major trouble for the Lackawanna Chapter R&LS and depending upon a number of factors the parent national R&LS even to the point that local and national officials could be held liable. From the sounds of it these people probably have not dotted all of their I’s and crossed their T’s. If the chapter follows through it will be interesting to see how it plays out. As my buddy says, the IRS have their own laws, courts, and judges. Of course if the chapter and national organization were doing what they told the IRS and everyone else, then destroying these items would not even be an issue right now. |
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| Author: | John Bohon [ Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
Some quick math tells me that there are about 178 tons of 100 pound rail in a mile. Retailing for say $450.00 per ton that is about $80,000.00 of rail. The OTM will bring perhaps another $20.000.00. Now you must subtract the cost of removal, sorting, and transportation. That would probably be something like $25,000.00. That makes the retail value of the material about $75,000.00 if it is sold for number 1 quality relay. If the quality is lower or the rail is an oddball section the price will be closer to $425.00 per ton. Scrap was hovering around $375.00 per ton the last I heard. It is safe to say the material will be some mixture of all of the above grades and being yard rail could well be mostly number 2 or scrap. I have never seen it. Please notice that the numbers above are retail numbers. That means the broker or dealer will want to turn a reasonable profit. I would think they would want at least a $25,000.00 profit. That brings the value down to something like $50,000.00. If you take these numbers and add up the actual footage of track to be scraped you will have a reasonable estimate of the value of the track. The only other thing the contractor will get of value is the old ties. I can not estimate their worth because I have no idea what their condition is. Usually ties in yard tracks are not very good so their value is probably rather low. John Bohon |
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| Author: | ironhorse69 [ Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
It is extremely important to note that at no time did the Lackawanna Chapter of the L&HRS ever state in any correspondence to the Carbon County Commissioners that they intended to scrap the rails in the Jim Thorpe yard. What they DID say was that they might have to REMOVE the rails. |
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| Author: | ironhorse69 [ Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The site is important - not the elements in isolation |
At no time did Andy Mueller or the Carbon County Commissioners EVER make any kind of "official" offer to the Lackawanna Chapter to purchase the rails owned by them in the Jim Thorpe yard. Mr. Mueller did make an indirect unofficial offer to Rail Tours for the rails in the amount of $20,000.00 which in my estimation is unrealistic and not even worth considering. |
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| Author: | robertjohndavis [ Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Remove and sell... |
Scrapping by any other word... unelss there is a buyer willing to pay for old rail... From the Times News 5/27/04 http://www.tnonline.com/archives/news/2004/05.27/carbon.html Quote: Kenneth C. Miller, president of the Lackawanna Chapter of the historical society, also said in the letter that should the county not accept any of those proposals, they would have no choice "but to contact the various historical societies, individuals and Rail Tours that they will have to move their equipment off our trackage, so that the chapter can sell its rail and its other appurtenances, and begin the rail and turntable removal prior to the end of the year."
Miller warned that last option would be "extremely inadvisable and totally destructive" for residents of the county, and in particular, the merchants. |
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