Railway Preservation News :: View topic - Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station?

The SI and WW spent YEARS extricating the remnants of this engine from the Mexicans-no doubt dedicated contributions were received for the project.

Now some these folks want to obtain this locomotive as a centerpiece display. No kiddin'. This action indicates a serious lack business acumen. Is there a ATSF F-unit left that wore the "Warbonnet"? I know there's many steamers left.

As a group, we really need to stop this kind of stuff.

Why does a government owned locomotive have to be exclusive of operation?

If anyone ahs the resources to fund this, its the Feds.

If anyone have the expertise, it's Doyle. Where's the difficulty?

A live and operable locomotive is far superior to a empty hulk.
If the Mexicans are not going to operate their PA's, let's cosmetically restore this one and swap 'em out.

Why paint the PA in Nickel Plate colors?
Doyle says: "Because it's mine and I want it that way."
To elaborate, having grown up in Conneaut, OH, and having a father who worked for the Nickel Plate, Doyle has a special fondness for the road. Futhermore, NKP190 was the first locomotive in which Doyle got to ride. And besides, it's just a damn nice paint schemeâ€”a statement with which few could argue.

And for those who insist that they be painted as AT&SF units, personally, I just don't get it. Yeah, the SF paint scheme is very pretty, but I'm a purist. I think engines should be painted historically accurate to their original owners.

The Greyhound motorcoach has been cut into a quarter of its original full size and put against the wall with a back drop painting of a highway and a Chicago bus nose has been chopped off right in front of the front wheels. Presumably both of these were cut up because of the space a full size bus of either type consumes.

It may be easier to defend the chopped up Chicago EL car in the exhibit as there are many still in existence (see the DC-3 example, many exist) and that the overall "feel" of the exhibit is more important than the artifact itself.

Author:	Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station?
Copied (with edits) from Trains Newswire at www.trains.com: Kansas City Union Station's board of directors agreed Wednesday to explore the possibility of acquiring an Alco PA1 diesel locomotive from the Smithsonian Institution, according to a story in The Kansas City Star and other news sources. The locomotive, or whatâ€™s left of it, is in storage in Oregon. William Withuhn, curator of transportation at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History in Washington, D.C., suggested the locomotive could be restored and used for paid tours and excursions. The PA in question was Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe No. 59L, built by Alco in 1948. After nearly two decades of powering Santa Fe passenger trains, it, along with three other Santa Fe PAs, was sold to the Delaware & Hudson in 1967; there, ATSF 59L became D&H 16. The four D&H PAs gained fame as the last such units operable in the U.S., and during 1974-75, they were rebuilt for the D&H by Morrison-Knudsen in Idaho. {some PA history snipped} When the two PAâ€™s returned to the U.S., McCormack took possession of both. He owns the former Santa Fe 62L (later D&H 18), and is restored it in Portland, Ore. It will be in Nickel Plate livery as a commemoration to McCormackâ€™s background. The fate of the Smithsonianâ€™s PA has been uncertain, and the unit is currently just a shell without an engine, generator, trucks, wiring, or side panels. Restoring its exterior would cost as much as $374,000, and restoring it inside and outside to operable condition would cost up to $1.17 million, Withuhn said, who also said he would help raise private money for the restoration. Short of funds, the Kansas City Union Station board only committed to having Withuhn and the station's rail museum consultant, Pete Hansen, come up with a feasibility study. Withuhn would not charge the station for his services, but Hansen would. The Union Station group is amassing a small collection of equipment, having recently purchased from a private owner and moved from Milwaukee a Milwaukee Road F7, Pullman sleeper, and diner, and a Great Northern Empire Builder observation lounge car. If Santa Fe 59L winds up at the Kansas City museum, too, it would rest next to the main line on which it hauled Chicago-California â€œChiefsâ€

Author:	davew833 [ Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
I would rather see it operational or even on static display at KCUS than entombed the way SR #1401 is at the Smithsonian. The PA's in very sad shape now- the remaining hulk has significant wreck damage, as well as having been stripped of everything removable as was mentioned.

Author:	Mike Boehm [ Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
I was in Kansas city this past October and the restoration of Union Station is very well done. The interior is beautiful. Unfortunately, railroad history, memorabilia, old photos, maps, etc is somewhat limited. The balcony level is where most of the historical items will be found. An interesting feature is a glass enclosed pedestrian walkway called "The Link" Starting ( or ending ) at Union Station, elevated from the street about 2 stories up, it connects with both the Westin and Hyatt Regency hotels. Included are many shops (including a model train shop), restaurants, a movie theater, activities for kids, etc. Very convenient if the spouse or significant other is not interested in the trains. If railfanning in K.C. be sure to check out SantaFe junction. This spot is not to be missed. Local railfans I met claimed 125 trains a day and I tend to believe them. About a mile from Union Station. Ground level BNSF - UP diamonds, UP elevated with bridge over the river, and the new BNSF "Argentine Connection" flyover bridge. TRAINS.COM has a mention of this location in the Newswire section dated 9/14/04.

Author:	superheater [ Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:46 am ]
Post subject:	Unbelieveable, Absolutely Unbelievable
*

Author:	robertjohndavis [ Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Unbelieveable, Absolutely Unbelievable
Supe, Youl have to 'splain some more. I see this as really posititive. Add a point below to show me the problem... 1. Hulk sits for years in Mexico 2. SS, WW and others spend years getting hulk back to US. 3. They do it 4. Hulk sits for years in US 5. WW and SS still hope to rebuild hulk. 6. KC folks say we'll house it in a passenger terminal where it once ran 7. SS and WW agree to discuss So, after years of effort, the hulk could be put back together in interpreted on it's home ground. What would be better? The only, only thing I might suggest as better would be to display it in pieces or restored in Schnectady. Or maybe LAUPT? What's the issue? Rob superheater wrote: The SI and WW spent YEARS extricating the remnants of this engine from the Mexicans-no doubt dedicated contributions were received for the project. Now some these folks want to obtain this locomotive as a centerpiece display. No kiddin'. This action indicates a serious lack business acumen. Is there a ATSF F-unit left that wore the "Warbonnet"? I know there's many steamers left. As a group, we really need to stop this kind of stuff.

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Author:	scottychaos [ Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
yeah, I dont see the big deal about it going to KC either.. as long as its undercover and a least cosmitically restored, anyplace is fine! but what happened to the plan of it going to the Smithsonian? why is that plan even being considered being changed? personally, I think having the engine there is an excellent idea too. its a very historic relic, I actually like the idea of having it indoors at the Smithsonian! I dont see any problem with either idea..(Smithsonian or KC) Scot

Author:	Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
Scotty, I think you may be confusing "being in the Smithsonian collection" with "being on display at the Smithsonian in Washington DC." Bill W. wanted the PA for the Smithsonian collection, but I don't think there was ever any intent of displaying it at the Smithsonian museums in Washington. The transportation exhibit an NMAH was just redone, and there's no place in it for a PA and they won't be revising it anytime soon. That's not to say t couldn't be displayed. The Smithsonian routinely lends artifacts on long-term loan, especially to museums that are official Smithsonian affiliates. In fact, there's been a big push over the last ten years to get artifacts out of the Smithsonian warehouses and onto display by loaning them to other institutions. I'm sure this is what Bill always had in mind for the PA eventually.

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
A live and operable locomotive is far superior to a empty hulk. A sheltered locomotive that is also operable is better yet. My hopes would be that once DMc is done with his loco, funds are made available to bring the SI's loco back to life, and as near as possible to its original livery and shape. Why couldn't both locos double-head in the future, which is the way God wanted them to be run? Why does a government owned locomotive have to be exclusive of operation? If anyone ahs the resources to fund this, its the Feds. If anyone have the expertise, it's Doyle. Where's the difficulty? The ALCO PA design is regarded as a national treasure, and rightfully so. If the Mexicans are not going to operate their PA's, let's cosmetically restore this one and swap 'em out.

Author:	Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
Richard Glueck wrote: Why does a government owned locomotive have to be exclusive of operation? It isn't: see Steamtown and Promotory (Federal), Cass and C&TS (State). However, just becuase government can operate an engine doesn't mean the Smithsonian should; I for one think the Smithsonian is best suited to long-term care and conservation and should not be in the operating business. Others may differ. It seems that in our community this is a basic split in perspective, with few people uncommitted to one side or the other. Richard Glueck wrote: If anyone ahs the resources to fund this, its the Feds. Have to disagree with you there, if by the Feds you mean the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian is only quasi-Federal, and it's annual allotment from the Government is not overly generous once the size of the collections and the scope of the facilities they have to maintain is taken into account. They are always looking for money, and doing some increasingly controversial things to raise it from the private sector; they don't have it lying around in uncommitted bucketsfull. Richard Glueck wrote: If anyone have the expertise, it's Doyle. Where's the difficulty? Money, see above. The National Museum of American History just spent megabucks on overhauling their transportation and military history exhibits. They still have megabucks worth of work yet to go to bring the other basic exhibits at NMAH up to 21st century specs. Overhauling a PA is a project well beyond their resources, mission, and intentions right now.

Author:	p51 [ Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
Richard Glueck wrote: A live and operable locomotive is far superior to a empty hulk. If the Mexicans are not going to operate their PA's, let's cosmetically restore this one and swap 'em out. Amen. I'm a little torn on this issue. I was lucky enough to litterally get lost one day and drive right past the hulks of the two PA's in Albany, Oregon while coming back from a job interview almost three years ago. I was happy yet sad to see them there. Better here than rotting away in Mexico, I guess (?). To say they were pretty far gone is a gross understatement. The things would be turned to slag if they weren't so rare. There was nothing there but a semblance of a frame, some body frame work and some sheet metal holding it all together and nothing else. Making a running engine out of either of them would be like pulling a wrecked WW2 fighter plane off the floor of the Pacific Ocean and restoring it to fly. You'd have to replace everything but the shadow. But is taking a gutted skelton of what was once a diesel, throwing whatever engine that would fit into the carbody and making the rest, actually a "restoration"? Would the Smithsonian be happy with such an effort? Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted with what Doyle's done with his PA, but I don't think that'd be good enough for the Smithsonian. I know through personal experience what they do with the aircraft in the Air & Space Museum, and those standards are way beyond the "just throw an engine that works in there and make her hum," concept. And for those who insist that they be painted as AT&SF units, personally, I just don't get it. Yeah, the SF paint scheme is very pretty, but I'm a purist. I think engines should be painted historically accurate to their original owners. That being said, maybe it's my nature to do things to cheese people off and go against the grain, but I loudly applaud Doyle McCormack's decision to go with a NKP paint job for his PA: http://www.nkp190.com/scans/Brooklyn/bluebird.jpg Straight from the project's FAQ page: Quote: Why paint the PA in Nickel Plate colors? Doyle says: "Because it's mine and I want it that way." To elaborate, having grown up in Conneaut, OH, and having a father who worked for the Nickel Plate, Doyle has a special fondness for the road. Futhermore, NKP190 was the first locomotive in which Doyle got to ride. And besides, it's just a damn nice paint schemeâ€”a statement with which few could argue.

Author:	Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
Quote: And for those who insist that they be painted as AT&SF units, personally, I just don't get it. Yeah, the SF paint scheme is very pretty, but I'm a purist. I think engines should be painted historically accurate to their original owners. Correct me if I'm wrong (I have been in the recent past), but as I recall, those locomotives WERE originally Santa Fe, purchased by the "Alco-haulic" Delaware & Hudson from AT&SF secondhand in 1967 and then subsequently sent to Morrison-Knudsen for their rebuild with the less-troublesome 251's. Which of course raises the authenticity red flag--if they want a Santa Fe relic, they need to drop in a used, trouble-prone 244. If they drop in a 251, it'll run better, bit it's a hybrid. Of course, anything they produce from that hulk is a hybrid, if you think about it........ Is Doyle putting a 244 or a 251 in his "NKP 190"?

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
It's never unusual for Erik and and me to disagree on the finer points, at least we are both seeking similar goals. The Federal government allocates money for specific divisions, and yes, you are correct in saying that so many worthy projects must be approached with such a limited checkbook. Still, the government thinks it has limitless pockets for certain operations, and without getting nto a political slugfest, funding is made available where the Congress deems it worthwhile (even if it ain't!). No, I'm merely pointing out that if anyone wanted to rebuild the PA, as it is a national treasure, the Feds could do it. I'm not advocating that approach. I wonder if popular subscription amongst railfans would draw enough funds to rebuild her as an operable Santa Fe locomotive, once again. Whether she has a 244 or a 251 is now irrelavent, as she saw use in both configurations. I'm a purist, I'd like to see her as a warbonnet S.F. unit, but she'd look good in Erie-Lackawanna colors too. Paint is paint, but the PA is unique. For the life of me, I cannot understand how they wound up in Mexico, and how the Mexicans could allow them to be destroyed as such. The other riddle is, with no real PA heritage, why do they covet the last operable units as they do, when funds for real Mexican heritage locos could be derived from them? I'm not trying to be naive here, but I want to point out that when solid American rail historians might have acted, nothing happened. Doyle can have a Nickle Plate PA. He certainly has earned it. And by the way, if it's so impossibly expensive to restore one of these wrecks, how has he managed it? We should think in possibilities rather than roadblocks.

Author:	JamesKissinger [ Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
I've seen how rabid this board can get when anyone even suggests a slightly critical comment about the Smithsonian's artifact or exhibit practices, but I'll take the wrath........ My only request is that you visit the new transportation exhibit in person before being too vocal and contrast that experience with that of the downtown and new Air & Space Museum Annex. Neither Air & Space is especially good at "context" in my opinion, but there is no question that the artifacts are preserved. The Air & Space Smithsonian standards mentioned by another poster appear to be unique to that entity and do not necessarily apply to all the other Smithsonians. The standards used to restore the Enola Gay would not likely be applied to the former Santa Fe (& DH) Alco PA, or a 17th century painting for that matter. It would be interesting to see that done with a locomotive, but it wouldn't likely happen. If you visit the "new" transportation exhibit in the American History building, you will find that neither the Air & Space nor the artwork standards apply to the artifacts there. An easy comparison: The Greyhound motorcoach has been cut into a quarter of its original full size and put against the wall with a back drop painting of a highway and a Chicago bus nose has been chopped off right in front of the front wheels. Presumably both of these were cut up because of the space a full size bus of either type consumes. IF we followed this approach with a DC-3 airplane, we'd either cut off the nose for display behind the pilot's seat and paint the rest on the wall, or chop the plane at an angle to save one wing and the side passenger door area, leaving off the tail which could also be painted onto the wall. This would greatly reduce space for plane display and the same argument that allowed the rare Greyhound to be cut for exhibition could be used, as the plane's function would still be clear to visitors. After all, would the extra space to hold the entire plane greatly improve the visitor's experience or tell the passenger aviation story any better? Besides, people know what a plane is just as they know what a bus is. It may be easier to defend the chopped up Chicago EL car in the exhibit as there are many still in existence (see the DC-3 example, many exist) and that the overall "feel" of the exhibit is more important than the artifact itself. It is a good exhibit with movement and a movie that makes it seem that you are riding the EL, but the piece of the artifact used as a prop to tell the story of mass transit. It isn't a preserved EL car no matter how hard you twist the definition. IF (and this is only for illustration purposes) the ALCO PA had been part of the new transportation room, I think you could safely say that the size of the engine would be a liability. Since the nose of the ALCO PA is its key feature, and since so little of the actual locomotive exists beyond the "shell", and the rest of the locomotive is just a big box that hold the radiators, generator, and prime mover, there is not much to show relative to the space it would take up. Models already show how a diesel electric locomotive works in other parts of the exhibit, so that's not really worth the space in full size. The key point would be to show to the public the postwar modern passenger train's streamline look... right?? With this in mind, cutting off the cab right behind the electrical cabinent would save alot of space and provide the public with the "feel" of this locomotive, just as with the Greyhound bus and other coach. If the setting was done right with a signal placed next to it and a painted backdrop of the Super Chief, it would probably satisfy 80 - 90% of the public, especially if you allowed them to climb into the cab area (as on the EL car) with restored seats and controls. Maybe a "Train Simulator" style projection TV cab ride video could give visitors the feeling of running on tracks through the desert with appropriate horn sounds to heighten the effect. Most of the public will only walk through the cab for a few minutes anyway. Of course various access concerns might only allow for one original cab doors to remain, the other opening cut out for wheelchair access from a platform. Everything that has been posted so far only further supports the idea that this "hulk" has so little original fabric, lacking all the mechanical items, side body sheets, and being changed / altered by the D&H PA-4 conversion at MK, that the cab is the only part worth saving for display. Even the trucks are not original, and the display doesn't really need them as light weight wooden parts could represent them or the cab access platform might hide this to the point where they really aren't needed at all. The EL car doesn't have wheels or trucks and the Chicago bus doesn't have tires. With all of this in mind, I'm very glad it did not end up downtown D.C. as it is anyone's guess which logic would be used when it was "prepared" for display. I don't know (or care) who made the decision to cut up the buses, but the exhibit designer was clearly given a certain amount of space to tell a story and apparently some authority regarding what could be done with large artifacts to make them fit. While many of us care about the PA and its significance, no doubt others have feelings and interest in a full size antique Greyhound bus as well. The PA locomotive would have been nothing more than another large (& very incomplete) artifact to an exhibit designer to mold into a display. All this is not to say that this WOULD have happened to the PA, but the way artifacts are treated in the "modern" general interest museum environment is not the same as it was only a decade or two ago. The "new" transportation exhibit proves this point well. Call it the Disney effect if you will, but an exhibit that is "popular" with the public will likely be the new order of the day..... and one that needn't be copied by other museums just because "the Smithsonian does it that way" and that "its popular with the public". By the way, On the multiple visits I have made to this exhibit, the most popular attraction with the public seems to be the big screen TV that shows a loop of Hollywood car chases and crashes as well as various other car related film stuff...... Sad commentary about the public as they seem to relate better to the TV than actual artifacts, and to the TV / Movie reality instead of the real world. My favorite part of the exhibit (I do have at least one!) is the Buick dealership. The commentary is well done and this exhibit does take quite a bit of space to pull off, but the Buick is not sectioned / chopped. I can't say that I even understand what is trying to be conveyed by the last room of the exhibit that is somehow related to communications / Los Angeles, and ????? It seems to be lost on the general public as well. People just stream through it. The Southern steam engine (now with much better and greater context) seems to tell the public that the story of railroads is only related to the past , not the present, or future (I doubt the AAR would approve)..... The exhibit on container tranport (container artifacts are chopped as you'd expect) only lightly hints that railroads are part of this process..... Things to chew on........ James Kissinger

Author:	Erik Ledbetter [ Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Smithsonian's Alco PA to go to Kansas City Union Station
Just a few notes. I don't know if this is "defending" the Smithsonian or not, but it may add another view. My understanding is that all the artifacts sectioned for this exhibit were not taken "off the shelf" from the permanent collection; instead, they were specifically acquired as unaccessioned "use artifacts" for the puposes of this exhibit. Often the object selected was chosen precisely becuase it was already damaged or too far gone to be a candidate for complete preservation, and sectioning it was a way to save part of it. Let me illustrate with specifics in response to James' observations. JamesKissinger wrote: The Greyhound motorcoach has been cut into a quarter of its original full size and put against the wall with a back drop painting of a highway and a Chicago bus nose has been chopped off right in front of the front wheels. Presumably both of these were cut up because of the space a full size bus of either type consumes. 1. The Greyhound: The bus was cut to film its interior for a movie before it was donated to the Museum and it was cut again for America on the Move. 2. The "Chicago" bus: had been sitting in a Nebraska scrap yard for a number of years. The Museum purchased #1210 in February 2003. Werner Enterprises, of Omaha, Nebraska, donated the work to cut and modify the bus to replicate a Chicago Transit Authority bus for the exhibition. JamesKissinger wrote: It may be easier to defend the chopped up Chicago EL car in the exhibit as there are many still in existence (see the DC-3 example, many exist) and that the overall "feel" of the exhibit is more important than the artifact itself. The EL car is complete. The running gear is just hidden under the exhibitry by design. The car is in complete and nicely restored condition and is accessioned into the collection. So, more things to chew on........

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