I'll let this news update from Heritage Railway Magazine in the UK pretty much sum things up on its own. I was prevented from purchasing shares of this loco at the time the public offering was made because I wasn't a British citizen (among other excuses); I also feel like this should serve as a fair warning to the multitudes of young enthusiasts that occasionally suggest such "pipe dream" ideas as buying "shares" of big engines like C&O 614 or a Reading T1, or the Ohio Central's steam operation. The Flying Scotsman has a more saleable and marketable image and presence than any locomotive save for Thomas (if even second to that), and this group still went under.......

Does anyone still wonder why I'm such a ruthless cynic of private ownership of rail preservation projects (yet still viewing it as preferable to government ownership)?

"A FLYING Scotsman plc shareholder has described as ‘inexcusable’ the lack of information from the company since the sale of Gresley A3 Pacific No 4472 to the National Railway Museum in April.
At the same time Peter Shea, non-executive chairman of the company, has admitted that, despite the £2.31m raised by the sale, shares held by enthusiasts throughout the country were now worthless.
Roger Horsfall, a champagne and wine importer, is one of many steam enthusiasts who bought shares when the owning company floated on the OFEX junior stock exchange in 2002.
“I never expected to make money on the shares or indeed receive a dividend – I did it to support the engine and its owners,â€

Well, yes, but...
Remember that the A1 Trust is building a new from scratch engine. They
have been poking along for much longer than originally planned. But they
still seem to be moving. Lots of engines in UK are privately owned and
indeed engines change hands and have been through more than one
major rebuild.
I think that this is like anything else: some plans work out some do not.
Isn't engine 261 privately owned here and would I be correct in thinking
it is run on at least a breakeven business plan?

Milwaukee Road 261 is (as far as I know) still owned by the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, WI and is on a long term lease to The Friends of the 261. Initially, at least, it was a ten year lease. I think they've renewed it for another 15 if memory serves me correctly.

And yes, 261 breaks even or better, the last time I talked to Steve Sandberg about the operation.

Doug,
#261 is on lease from the National Railroad Museum at Green Bay. FO 261 is a not-for-profit enterprise so I believe that stating that they break even or do better is misleading. Any money leftover after the bills are paid is plowed back into maintenance of the locomotive and the rather extensive car fleet. The organization turns no profit and no one is enriched through the operation of the locomotive or car fleet (except for the people who turn out to see and ride behind her). Like any mainline steam operator, the trains must continue to operate at capacity and donations are always welcome.

Is your son working that new railroad job on this holiday?

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.

Don C.

This is just a matter of semantics. Generally, "for-profit" organizations earn "profits" while non-profit organizations generate a "surplus" if their receipts exceed their expenses on a particular endeavor. -- Ray

Last time he checked, he was fifth out, and there's nothing coming up that looks likely. So he expects to get Thanksgiving dinner at home. He did get called and asked if he wanted to work outside his territory for a few days, but it was a request, not a requirement, so he turned 'em down.

Still a happy conductor though.

Ray,
You are correct. There just shouldn't be a false impression that ANY group, including FO 261, is really capable of generating a "profit". There are plenty of projects that still need to be assigned a priority and the others must wait until funds become available (if they ever become available). Bringing "Minnesota River" and "Cedar Rapids" into compliance with Amtrak standards last winter was a hugely expensive undertaking. Steve's crew should be congratulated for the hard work and innovative solutions to making these two cars compliant. Rob Mangels' and Tim O'Neil's design and fabrication skills that resulted in completely hidden, retractable/sliding 480v receptacles on the rear of the Skytop which allows retention of the original streamlined lines of the car is spectacular, in my opinion. Combine that with an unheated shop and a limited budget and you get the idea. There are equally interesting and important projects being carried on by each and every one of the big (and little) steam and museum operators out there. They all need assistance, particularly the monetary type.

Doug, he'll have plenty of other holidays to work and be on the road!

Don C.

But isn't the point of "shares" in such a locomotive project to actually get the locomotive running, rather than to earn a payback? I would hope that prior to plowing cash into a rebuild, sherd investors would understand that few fan-tripping locomotive make back more than maintainance and operating expenses. It would be great if locomotive restorations were quick money makers, butreality says "no".
In the case of the "Flying Scotsman", the loco wasn't able to carry her expenses, and as a national symbol she was preserved in York. I doubt anyone could or would seriously complain.

Maybe my senior memory fails me but I seem to remember the the 261 project was backed by a corporation called North Star Rail or something very similar. This funding mechanism paid for the original restoration and then was going to continue to market the locomotive "for profit". I was under the impression that the "Friends of 261" was more of a volunteer support group (old time term "auxiliary"). Steve S. was involved from the beginning (1993 or so?).

Has there been a change or am I simply mistaken?

Thanks as always in advance.

Scott

In most cases, such as the A1 Trust, no one ever expects to get their money back. The 4472 project was marketed differently, as the locomotive has almost as much marketability (in the UK, at least) as Thomas or the Polar Express. Imagine if Hornby, the noted UK toy train maker, had had to pay £1 for each model of 4472 it has sold over the decades!

The more legitimate question in the case of 4472: the group was allegedly £1.5 million in debt. The loco was sold for £2.3 million (about $4 million). so what happens to the other £800,000? Maybe there was indeed more debt to cover, but the shareholders do indeed have a right (IMO) to ask whether or not it went into one individual's pockets.