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Street Running
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11498		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ray dewley [ Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Street Running
After seeing a number of pictures of freight trains running down town streets from across America, a couple of guestions have come to mind. Those are, which came first, the street or the rail line? And, this may relative to each instance, but how did they come together in the first place? Could some have been street railway lines that were absorbed into local lines that were in turn absorbed into today's big RR's?

While these street running lines are slowly dwindling, there are still a fair number of them around.
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
The streets came first. Streets are platted in a town to provide both access to the private property, and to provide a right of way for public conveyance. Railroads were initially viewed as a "public conveyance" much as street railways later were, and some towns initially granted franchises that allowed the RR company to use the public street. I can't think of a single instance where the opposite is true, where a RR granted the right for a public street on its private ROW, other than some bridges that had vehicle decks installed.
Author:  JimBoylan [ Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
There are probably some exceptions where a railroad came first, and by the time the street was built around the rails, there was common, probably government, ownership.
American St. in Philadelphia, Penna. is probably an example of a street that may have legally existed before the North Penn Railroad was built in the 1800s, but wasn't paved until the 1970s.
There may also be rare cases where a railroad was dumb enough to accept free government land with "strings and conditions" attatched!
Author:  Phil Mulligan [ Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
Going back to the earliest roads in Phila. (1830's) they were frequently in the streetbeds. The predecessors of Amtrak's NEC: P&T; PW&B were in Trenton Ave. and Prime St. respectively. PRR was in Market St. SEPTA's main trunk was in 9th St. (PG&N). These became main lines and were bypassed (PRR/Amtrak) or elevated (RDG/SEPTA) (Trenton Ave. was elevated also after it was bypassed as a thru route)

In the industrial area, switching tracks remained in the streets to reach industries on the streets as long as the business remained. Sometimes the street was on the City Plan but had not been opened when the RR set up in the streetbed, so physically the RR came first.
Author:  Dave [ Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
I think the Dothan main.line out of Albany GA was later absorbed into the street - maybe Stephen Syfrett has better information? OTOH, the City of Savannah granted the CRR&BCo. an easement to lay track down River Street in the 1870's to serve the wharves before the Ocean Steamship Company built their wharf.

dave
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
JimBoylan wrote:
There are probably some exceptions where a railroad came first, and by the time the street was built around the rails, there was common, probably government, ownership.


I guess I'm using a slightly different definition of "street" than some of the others who have responded. Railroads didn't just build their tracks on land that no one owned; they either owned the land, or obtained a franchise to build from the owner.

A street becomes a street when the land is platted, and the street rights of way are deeded to the city, town, or whatever government entity has control. Whether they are ever paved is immaterial. A street remains a street until the government either vacates the ROW, normally deeding the land to the adjacent land owners, or sells it. At this point it becomes private property and is no longer a "street" even if it happens to have pavement on it.

Back to the railroad situation, in the early days of railroading, when equipment was small and speeds slow, many eastern cities felt that a railroad track on the street ROW was in the public's interest, and granted franchises. Some of those ROW's eventually were paved around the tracks, and while mostly an eastern phenomena, examples could be found in all fifty states. Other times the ROW remained unpaved, but it was still a "street" as long as the government had not disposed of it.

The second wave of franchised rail lines in public streets came with the development of streetcars. While initially envisioned as passenger carrying conveyances and granted franchises for that purpose, some of the lines grew to become full fledged railroads. The Chicago South Shore & South Bend is a good example which still runs hundred car freight trains down about three miles of track built under franchise from the city of Michigan City, all but about a couple of blocks paved and used for other vehicular traffic. Whether this was allowable depended upon the exact wording of the franchise, and eventually a popular way to prevent this sort of "mission creep" was to stipulate in the franchise that the track must be some gauge other than standard gauge. This strategy was common in the state of Pennsylvania, and gave rise to the term "Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge".
Author:  Roger Mitchell [ Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
Here in Fort Collins, Colorado the north/south main line of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe between Cheyenne and Denver runs down the middle of Mason Street for over 3/4 of a mile. When the railroad was built through Fort Collins, the then Colorado and Southern was granted a 100 foot wide right of way through town. The 3/4 of a mile of it on Mason street is part of it though the railroad has never kicked the city off of the ROW. It is paved all the way. Trains through down town Fort Collins are restricted to a maximum speed of 15 MPH at the lead locomotive when they are on the Mason Street section. So far there have been relatively few close encounters of the first kind there despite the opportunity for disaster there.
Author:  Stephen S. Syfrett [ Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Street Running
The track situation in Albany, GA, where the current NS line to Dothan, AL runs down the middle of Roosevelt Avenue, is an apparent mix, although it is most likely the railroad was granted an easement by the city within the old town limits.

At the time the South Western Railroad built the Blakely Extension (later to become the Central of Georgia's Dothan Main), Roosevelt Ave. was named North Avenue, and pretty much delineated the northern extent of town. The passenger depot and freight depot were north of North Avenue at it's eastern terminus on the west side of the Flint River. North Ave. was lined by industries, and there were at least 3 tracks in the ROW where there is just one today. At the western extent of the old town limits (about 6 blocks west of the passenger depot), the RR ROW and the street ROW are separate, indicating the railroad had their ROW before the road was extended beyond the old town limit.

NS operates about 2 trains per day over the line in Roosevelt Avenue. One runs to the interchange with the Chattahoochee Industrial (out and back) and the other is an out and back local to the industrial park on the west side of town. When the James E. Straights fair show comes to town in late October each year, the flats are pulled down Roosevelt Avenue to a siding further west where they are unloaded.

So, if you want to see some decent street running, come to Albany, and visit Thronateeska Heritage Center in the former Union Passenger Terminal at the east end of Roosevelt.
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