My son and I were watching an old video tape from the "all aboard" series which featured the mid-continent operation. He asked me if the engine still ran (1385), I said no, but I wasn't sure what had really happened to it. I went to the mid-continent website, and I think I came away with more questions than answers. To be sure mid-continent has a large variety of steam, I had no idea they had so many. But seemingly an alarming number were either disassembled in pieces, under "restoration" or together but in bad shape. It seems to me that it would make more sense to apply the efforts towards one engine, get it operational, attract tourists, and then restore others as manpower and money permit. Not try and restore three at once and make very slow headway. What am I missing here? Are there fractional groups at play here, where "this is my engine, that is your engine".
I know at the museum close to my heart and location everybody has a project, but when times of need come around, everybody is mobilized on a project until it is complete, is this simply not happening at Mid-Continent? Fill me in on what I am missing.

I would not be too hard on them, or any volunteer based preservation operation.

I believe the 1385 was sidelined when cracks were discovered in the driving wheel castings, and other work was identified from there.

I have heard that on at least one of their engine projects they had sent parts to an outside shop and they had the bad luck to have that fellow go belly up, and I believe they are still searhing for some of their goods which have disappeared.

They have the added complication that I believe some of the equipment at the Museum is privately owned and that changes the entire dynamic of what gets worked on, who pays, etc.

I know at our Museum it is very hard to identify a project scope before starting. On a locomotive you may need to fix one fairly well defined thing, but once the beast is apart you discover additional work that ought to be done while things are apart.

At Mid Continent they have done some truly PHENOMENAL restorations on the rolling stock! You could almost spend an entire day on one piece examing it, the work, and the results.

Bob Kutella

It could take years and cost thousands of lives to get into some of the problems, and I won't go there with some of them. It is a volunteer situation and anybody who has dealt with this kind of operation knows where I am coming from.

The changing of FRA regs and the scope of repairs needed caught them by surprise. All over the country this has happened. In the case of the CN&W#1385, the fire box is not worth repairing, and replacing the intire firebox is the only real solution. The cost of replacing the firebox is almost more expensive then replacing the whole boiler top to bottom. So currently they are doing some serious looking into that. The engineering work has been started, so I have been told. I feel this is a start in the right direction, as the old boiler is just plain wore out. Sometimes I think it is better to start over if the boiler is too far gone. I am not a spokesman for MC, just my humble opinion.

The wheels are fine. The running gear was rebuilt a few years back and the driving wheels were repaired. It does need to be disassembled and cleaned and trammed.

When the work was planned for the boiler work, the FRA rule changes had not been in place yet. So the depth of repairs were not known till they went into it with the torch. Ultra sounding was not required or appearently thought about at the time. This is the story I was told, as I hadn't rejoined MC yet.

There have been many mistakes made by many people period. Hindsight is 20/20 for all of us. I agree and so do most of us that we should of rebuilt the Montreal #1 in the 90's when we had the other engines to operate. Privately owned {leased} engines are now a different story. With FRA rules they are now much more expensive to restore to operating condition. Some think the owner should foot the bill, some think after using the engines for 20 years or so that the museum should foot the bill. Nobody involved has that money to fork out for repairs. Tourism has been down which has added difficulty with money. Remember, track, coaches, drainage and a host of other things have to be upgraded to meet FRA standards as well. Just keeping the operating costs undercontrol is a major accomplishment. While I can understand the points made, there are some reasons that are understandable

I too am disgusted with some things, but I also know more about how, why, and by whom certain engines were disassembled. Poor planning and good intentions led to this. Again hindsight is 20/20. I have started many projects and never finished them too. If you have ever tackled a wrecker crane or a locomotive or a wood coach by yourself you can understand how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. While one could point fingers and critize others, it is time to remember we are all on the same side, or at least were supposed to be. Send money now.

Now, always try to leave on a positive note. The track has never looked better in the many years that I have been around the place. Section work is a very unglorified task. The guys in the car shop are an amazing bunch. They have learned to work/play together well and have produced a product of restored frieght and wooden coaches that are awesome. This summer they out did themselves in cosmetically restoring quite a bit of display equipment. It has been a rough couple of years, but not all is lost. Tourism is coming back up, not like when we had steam running, but compared to many tourist operations it is holding it's own better then many.

This is strictly my opinions and I am not a spokesperson for MC. Hope this answers your questions some.

Best fishes, John.

I normally try not to comment on the internal policy decisions of groups where I am not a member, but this comment has struck a nerve. From the concurrent thread about volunteering at for profit operations, I see a very clear division between people who feel that "steam is the thing", with any train that can hold the cattle, er, I mean the paying passengers being OK, and people like myself who view railway preservation as a living history museum, where the goal is to preserve locomotives, equipment, and the surrounding fabric all in context.

While I'm not a member of MCRM, I've been there, and made use of pieces of their collection for research, many times over the last forty or so years. It has always appeared to me that the business plan was to run the train both as a display, and as a source of income that would support loco maintenance and equipment restoration both. It appears, from where I stand, that the recent abrupt application of FRA oversight to museum demonstration railways has had a very adverse effect on MCRM's business plan, in that not enough funds had been set aside for the more extensive and expensive certification work that the FRA now requires. These funds had instead been diverted to building infrastructure (such as display buildings) and car restoration (such as the excellent work just completed on Copper Range coach number 60).

What bothers me the most about the present state of affairs is that while we have two excellent museum operations in Wisconsin that are presently without steam (the other being the Minnesota Transportation Museum's operation at Osceola, WI) we also have in Wisconsin two completely restored and certified medium size steam locomotives in essentially dead storage, with nowhere to run. I speak of Soo Line 1003, a 2-8-2 hiding out at the moment in an antique car museum and gift shop complex, and Soo Line 2719, a light 4-6-2 that was supposedly going to be leased to Rocky Mountain Rail Tours to haul rich tourists for profit far from home rails. The situation concerning the 2719 is exceedingly disappointing; it is my understanding that public funds from the state of Wisconsin paid for part of the restoration, yet the current group acts like it is more important to keep the engine earning the maximum amount of $$$ rather than have her running in her home state, possibly on her home rails (at Osceola) where the citizens of the state that helped restore her could enjoy her.

I reiterate, I have no knowledge of any of the business relationships of any of the parties involved, but I see a great amount of long term damage being done to the MUSEUM groups that are presently steamless, and I don't see why the preservation community as a whole can't see fit to move its assets where they can do the most good overall.

What bothers me the most about the present state of affairs is that while we have two excellent museum operations in Wisconsin that are presently without steam (the other being the Minnesota Transportation Museum's operation at Osceola, WI) we also have in Wisconsin two completely restored and certified medium size steam locomotives in essentially dead storage, with nowhere to run. I speak of Soo Line 1003, a 2-8-2 hiding out at the moment in an antique car museum and gift shop complex, and Soo Line 2719, a light 4-6-2

Hmm, interesting, I'm sure there are restored engines with no-where to run, and museums caught with their proverbial pants down by the new FRA regs. It would be nice to match them up, just two minor sticking points though, in some cases engines are landlocked (or entire facilities) and who does the paperwork for the lease agreement. I wonder how I would feel about giving "my" engine away to a "foreign" entity. We did raise guide dogs and give them away to the blind, because they had a bigger purpose, would steam preserver groups do the same? the engines have to be matched to the purpose too eg a shay would be no good for the Grand Canyon and 3751 wouldn't be suitable for the Sierra. Interesting thought though Dennis, the possibilities..oh the possibilities if the stars were ever to line up.

Again, I have no connection to Mid-Continent, but gut feeling is that they are doing what they can do, and better than many museums, they are actually concentrating on their rolling stock collection, especially the wood cars.

In our experience, our museum has had nothing but kind words and encouraging responses from Mid-Continent with our few dealings there --- for instance, when we found that little remained of our steps and outdoor platforms, we asked Mid-Continent for info on EJ&S #2's steps and platforms, the closest we have to a sister Grand Trunk Combine. Volunteers there were kind enough to copy, and well photograph the car, and quite frankly were the sole reason we knew where to look for our
car' s repair plate.

In short --- rather than mulling about and doing nothing becuase they are having difficulties running steam, they are DOING something. Not to rehash old wounds, but would you rather they be the old ORM?

TJG

The 1385 was taken out of service at the end of June 1998 because the flue time was up under the old FRA regulations. The cracks in the drivers that are referenced above were found during the running gear rebuild in the early 1990's. These cracks were repaired when the wheel work was done in Burmingham, AL.

We were able to get the rear tubesheet that was refered to in the above quote.


The idea of bringing in other restored steam locomotives has been discussed. The first issue is wether the infrastructure (i.e. bridge, track curvature...) will permit the use of the engines. The next issue has already been brought up regarding writing up a lease agreement.


Ed

I almost hate to chime in on this one, but this very topic has been high on my frustration list for many years.
First of all, this is not my turn to take a jab at Mid-Continent. They have my deep respect for their fantastic work that they have done on some of their wood car restorations lately. What I would hope is that other organizations would learn from the mistakes that have been made so they are not repeated. I support the folks at Mid-Continent. I visit the museum at least two times a year and the whole family rides the train at each visit. We always visit the gift shop and also offer donations when we can. I am hardly a well propertied man, but I do what I can.
I too am frustrated that when you look at most of their steam collection, the lions share of it is in an exploded view. Even worse is that several of the "exploded view" locomotives seem to have been cast off into the dirt in favor of the next item needing attention, only never to return to the shop. I have also been concerned when I look at the torch work on Paulsen logging #2's mud ring. I am certainly not a steam mechanic, but from my view, it seems like the mud ring was ruined by the cutting torch. The firebox portion of the 1385 is also mostly cut away. I know that they plan to replace it, so perhaps they have the old part for patterns. I think that the crew that is currently working on the WC&C #1 is doing some fine work and my hat's off to them. I truly appreciate the work they are doing, and the extent of the rebuild seems like it will be a very comprehensive overhaul when complete.
I can only imagine that the scope is overwhelming when you look at the whole thing, but these guys seem to keep plugging along, and I wish them all the best. If I remember correctly, they have made the decision to rid their collection of some of the locomotives that they don't want anymore. One of the ones that is still intact has been clearly stated that it doesn't fit with their mission and seems as neglected as it is unwanted. (GM 401). I also hope that the UP 2-8-0 #440 will get a good home. I hope that everyone who has an interest in the museum to please stop by and help them out if you can. Ride their dinner trains when they offer one. I will continue to go there every chance that I get, and will always be grateful of any progress and hope for future success. One final stop is to add a plug for "Carols Railroad Inn" cafe in North Freedom, one of my favorite places of all the eat lunch.
Steve

It was my understanding that many of the "works in progress" were actually owned by individual members rather than the organization. While the pros and cons of this sort of partnership can be debated (and should) the regrettable fact is it has created an appearance which can be misunderstood by the general public of the institution as a "junkyard" and turn off potential supporters. If visitors return and see nothing changed in the junkyard over months or years, it further erodes credibility. These guys do many things very well, and it is a shame whatever efforts they have started to deal with this housekeeping issue have come to little so far. I can only imagine the political pitfalls.

On another note, I don't think 401 was a GM decapod - it is identical to 209 (current work in progress) but I thought its heritage was AT&N. In any case, if it was retrofitted with a Berkeley stoker and the gages are intact, I'd like to borrow one for replicating the faces.

dave