The thread about PA and history can be understood in the microcosm of the recent speculation regarding the potential takeover of the Lackawanna Station by the University of Scranton.

Warning: There is political/economic opining here. Ignore those aspects of the preservation debate, admonish (by crying foul to moderators) those who try to bring those issues to the fore as introducing extraneous, inflammatory unrelated factors to preservation discussions and keep watching bulldozers/ engaging in a sysiphian (sp?) task-although to be honest its probably already too late for PA .

As many of you know, the Station was owned by a series of chains prior to the takeover by the Radisson. The Radisson became a stable owner of the building, preserving its character and structure while adapting it for a new use. If they now are vacating the question is why? A second question is why is Scranton still desperate to escape its economic doldrums. HOW can an area stay moribund for 50 years?

Simply put, Scranton probably has room for ONE high-end hotel. Interesting high-end in NEPA means about 100 bucks a night or less.

Too be sure, the old line industries began dying in the 50's. Anthracite Coal was eclipsed because oil was cheaper and easier and didn't have the external costs associated with anthrasilicosis, environmental degradation, subsidences and high production death death rates. With that end came the end of strings of hoppers leaving the lackawanna (and Wyoming) valleys. The textile industries died because in the post Taft-Hartley era-the ILGWU and other unions failed to see that wage demands would make off-shore production more and more attractive.

That part is factual, but why hasn't anything come to replace the old industries? There's been a series of mostly failed "economic development" efforts, especially in the last 35 years. Each has come with inflated promises and hidden costs. A short list of "crown jewels" of political interference.

Post Agnes 72 flood rebuilding of nearby Wilkes Barre-the federal government spent millions of dollars so the city could die.

Steamtown-love or hate it, it isn't pulling 500,000 people promised

Montage- a major screw up located on a hill without adequate "roadage" and a "south face" for ski slopes- south, more sun -more snowmaking expenses.

Red Barons- Attendence falling for years-former GM Bill Terlecky skated out of town right at the crest.

Natwest Bank- Several Hundred mostly back office jobs by whoever now owns that operation, last I checked it was Fleet.

Prudential - Several Hundred mostly back office jobs- which got worse after demutualization.

Steamtown Mall - destroyed a good portion of Lackawanna Avenue - and really benefits only Al Boscov of Boscov's Department Store. Yeah Get Monkey Ward in the age of Walmart!!! Brilliant.

Corning-Closed BEFORE THE BUILDING WAS COMPLETED!

I submit its PA's political system. Instead of supporting additional development with low taxes, honest and efficient government-PA operates like some Soviet republic. We love to support inanity here. An example totally off-topic:

You want a case of beer here? You have to go to a "distributor", although there's nothing to stop you from walking into a local pizzeria and buying a six-pack four times (other than the cost) You have to go to a "state store" to buy wine or spirits. Why? Because the distributors know they have an artificial franchise-and spend their effort buying votes. The state makes money from the state stores, of course.

An aging population of economic illiterates follow political pied pipers like lemmings-who have never realized the power to tax involves the power to destroy. There's only one party here-the republicrats or demopublicans.

Back to the station. The "conference center" was build with grants, tax breaks and other corporate welfare goodies. In doing so, it created artificial competition for the Radisson. ask yourself, should pensioners be supporting Paris Hilton's life of leisure and iniquity? Thats what it comes down too.

Consider the main proponent of the new hotel-former mayor Jimmy Connors. He fought for years for this thing, currying favors from Washington and Harrisburg. He showed his foresight by announcing a party switch (back to democrat from republican) in 2000 during a campaign swing by Al Gore. Gore wanted his support like hemorhoids-but Connors expected to be treated like some baron bringing tribute to the king. Of course Gore knew he was seeking booty by bringing the stain of a distressed city and treated him like a leper. Suprise! he lost in the democratic primary shortly after. He should've been tried for theft of public funds.

What was the result of this economic development? An excellent custodian of a historic property is being driven from the area-because politicians think they can create "development" by magic.

Now the wrecking ball will come to Bethlehem because Pennsylvania has decided we need economic development associated with gambling. BSW's history will be gone- replaced by a glittering casino, broken families, law offices specializing in bankruptcy and divorce filings, police forces swelled to handle fights, prostitution and the occasional violence. Thats ok though-the state will see "tax revenues".

In short the next time a politician promises to bring you straw made of gold-remember the price is your first born. The best thing a politician can do for preservation or economic development (they DON'T have to be mutually exclusive) is get the out of the way.

Everthing that you said can be applied to any other city in the US, large or small; successful or hollowed out. There is a good book about the political and economic mechanics behind this and how it works in Chicago entitled

Here's the Deal

by Ross Miller

It is a very informative as well as entertaining read, focusing on the movement to demolish historic and near 100% occupied buildings on Block 37 in 1989 -- a site that remains empty to this day.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0394589998/siteselectionmag/104-3850057-7578312

Steamheater makes a number of valid points. Seems to me that the principal reason that Steamtown has never even come close to generating the much ballyhooed expected 500,000 attendees( in reality its declined every year and is now under100,000) is that it was placed(yes a political deal by champion bacon-getter Cong. Joe McDade) in a non-tourist destination city. People just don't and won't go to Scranton,Pa. to recreate!! It's unfortunatly as simple as that.
The way the NPS has operated the place with all the mickey mouse rules and regulations(no photo run bys, not allowed to move from car to car, Smokey Bears with guns etc. etc.) has certainly produced negative word of mouth resulting in consistently declining attendance.
Steamtown now ranks as one of the 5 most expensive facilities within the NPS(in terms of cost per visitor) and it's only a matter of time 'till budget pressures result in its closing.
The hotel suffers from the same laws of nature. Not enough people come to Scranton, Pa. wanting an upscale hotel room to support it.
Seems to me that its best hope for a viable future might well be to be part of the University.
Just my opinion. Ross Rowland

The situation you describe is not unique to Pennsylvania. Most states and cities operate in much the same fashion, sadly. To be fair though, some of them are downright desperate for a miracle.
You mentioned the textiles industry. Here in the south, and particularly in North Carolina and Virginia, labor unions have never been a major factor in our industries (due mostly to state laws that limit union power). Wages have never come close to the levels in some of the northern states. Yet our once huge textiles industry is all but gone now, the jobs sent to various foreign countries. In my opinion this caused was by at least three presidents and many congessmen more interested in playing foriegn policy games than looking after the people who elected them. The term "Global Economy" is nothing more than a convenient excuse for corporate and government dirty work.
If there is any good news, it is that when all manufacturing has ceased in the USA, the railroads and truckers will still be needed to move all the imports across the country. Foreign interests could conceivably buy up our transportation system but they could never move it somewhere else.
Mike

I tried to think of something positive to add but there is just not an upside. Pennsylvania is run by special interest for special interest and you can always count on Pennsylvania to be last, take the wrong action, and spend the most money. It is a shame that so many historic industrail and railroad treasures happen to be located in a state that will never do the right thing. The best thing one can do is be glad they live somewhere else.

Tom Gears

I just visited a huge structure with a lot of well-preserved locomotives, railroad equipment, books, manuscripts, negatives, and other archival material in it. It was across the street from the Strasburg Rail Road, and it seemed to be a pretty nice place run by pretty competent people. I believe it was built, owned, and operated by the State of Pennsylvania. :-)

Erik, it is a great place-as you say.

However, the collection is primarily the work and a gift to history by the PRR-that had a sense of its own history-(yes they weren't perfect-e.g., the number plate changes).

The Commonwealth would have a rather paltry collection without that PRIVATE action. I don't subscribe to the theory but there are those that say its not the "railroad museum of PA" but the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, due to lack of representation by other roads. Of course roads like the CNJ, LVRR, Erie, DL&W and others were ahead of the curve in acheiving economic distress-so they could afford to hold steam that could be sold for scrap.

One stroke of luck also doesn't forgive horrendous oversights-such as the allowance of all but two anthracite breakers to fall or a million other missed opportunities. Why wasn't the Commonwealth (and I blame the legislature w/ the purse-not the PHMC) actively seeking say the BLE 643 in 95 as ongoing collection expansion program just for better representation as an example? How about now, where the last U.S. built diesels are being made by GE in Erie? History didn't stop in 1958. Lets see some U-boats in the collection. How about the last ALCOs?

The structure is a new construction which was located on farmland.No chance to raze some structure there.

It does not disprove the thesis that our state government is largely inept - and that a good deal of "economic development" is some politician's pipedream of chasing yesterday's news with our tax dollars and our history to provide conspicuous benefit at hidden (greater) costs.

A few comments on various parts of this thread…

I can’t claim to know the specifics of the Scranton hotel situation mentioned by Superheater, but I suspect that neither Raddison or the other previous operators ever owned the building being sold. Typically, hotel buildings are owned by passive real estate investors who contract operations out to the national chain whose name goes on the door. The investors know that hotels are special use buildings. When they want to sell (for whatever reason), they find the market illiquid. If there is a willing buyer who has an alternate use for the building, it may not matter if there is local market for up-scale hotels. The fact that there have been consecutive operators, however, suggests that this market is, at best, thin. That Steamtown’s attendance is less than 1/5 the projected amount is part of the problem. The projected number could only happen if there are over-night visitors, while actual performance suggests that the primary market is from non-hotel using day-trippers.

The book Here’s the Deal by Ross Miller suggested by Tom cornmille is a very good read. Unfortunately, it is probably quite inaccurate. Several people have complained of being misquoted and other things Miller described can’t be verified. The major shortcoming of the book is that it looks at the failure to redevelop one block of a ten-block redevelopment district. All of the other blocks, which had been declared “blighted,â€

No kidding, Supe! The two left (which had extensive rail operations) are there becuase a) in Ashley some local folks picked up the ball dropped by the state 20 years ago to at least keep the Huber away from the detonators and b) the family that owns the St. Nick has seen fit to keep pretty much the entire thing in tact but there are no active proposals to ensure its longevity.

Rob

While I am not familer with the criticism against Here's the Deal (but would like to be - please send me an e-mail) the overall message behind the book is that development in downtown Chicago and in many other cities occurs independent of actual demand. It is easier for a developer to attract funding to build a glitzy looking new building - where the market may not demand it, than to rehabilitate a perfectly sound and functional (and often historic) existing building. The developer makes money on fees and can then move on to another project.

The article linked below explains the specific numbers for Chicago. It also notes that continuing new construction will have a disproportionate impact on older buildings.

http://www.worldbusinesschicago.com/deeperlook/realestate.asp

The relevance of this to preservation is that, while preservationists may have the upper hand with sound economic reasoning - they rarely have the political relationships that big developers do. The best we can hope to do is to frame pro-preservation arguements in the same terms used by developers - focusing on how a given project will add value to the site, supr further development in the area and bring additional benefits as well.

We are about to lose almost all of the PRR Bel-Del line south of Phillipsburg, NJ to Milford. 7-plus miles are to be sacrificed, leaving a 4 mile stub to serve a lumber yard (me thinks) and host steam trains.

The problem? The papermill in Milfrod shut down. Rather than preserving infrastructure and manufacturing, the mill iste is being turned into condos and retail outlets. Rather than preserve the rail link, it is being ripped out.

It is a very scenic line with great potential for both tourists and revitalized industry, but like Bethlehem 15 miles west, this part of NJ would rather have you live and spend there, but earn it somewhere else.

And the torches are lit again.

Rob

Look out Super, here comes the reality. Scranton is a corrupt city.

Here's another one: my alma mater (da' U) University of Scranton has a terrible, terrible preservation record. The only bright spot is the former Glen Alden coal offices. otherwise, they have been quite liberal with the wrecking ball (or gutting the inside and leaving a shell).

Rob

Rob, I know. MBA '93. However, they aren't nearly as bad as the local and state government.

Interestingly, while getting the below degree, I had a classmate who told us how the city lost about 800,000. They only found it when the bank holding the money sent a final notice of inactivity prior to escheating the moneys to the unclaimed property bureau of the PA Treasury.

I was in Scranton 1986-1990. Those were particularly hard years to watch as the city literally fell building by building, leading up to the big blast after I graduated. The University did its fare share of the demolition. Steamtown, too. By the time the mid-1990's rolled around you saw a solid decade of demolition that ripped the core out of the city and deprived it some of its most historic residential, commercial and industrial landmarks.

I've sent more than one card begging for donations back to da' U with just the word "Duckworth" written on it. That was the apartment building next to Glen alden HQ tha tthey tore down for a parking lot. It was designed by the smae architects as the DL&W HQ and used some stone from the same quarry (as did the Hotel Casey, now also gone in the project to build a hotel across the street from the hotel that doesn't make money (and to do it, they tore down a hotel. Make sense?)

I earned my MS at Syracuse, which turned out to be a bit of a respite for me since they pretty much had demolished that city 20 years ago. I even learned to enjoy what was left and got to see a bit of a rail revival.

It was better to see the remains than to watch the city fall as I did in Scranton.

The lesson for all these towns is old Jim Thorpe. Downtown was virtually abandoned when the economy went dry. The lack of investment is what kept it locked in time. When time caught up, the new money people took to embracing the past rather than detonating it.

If only Scranton, Allentown, Reading, Wilkes-Barre could have done the same. South Beth still has a chance.


Arrrrrghhhh!

Rob

I remember Dave Ackerman posting a comment about two years ago about Scranton being one of the many "flyover" areas, that is missed by travelers, because it is not on the coast or perimeter of the US, where all the planes go. I believe this is true, but Steamtown can reap travelers who come in town for skiing at the Southern Exposure Montage (many still do... It is a barometer of success for all the other area ski slopes). STEA's road signs are up year round, even if steam isn't up year round. If you think no one ever visits, try working law enforcement on Thanksgiving, and see how many people just can not believe a National Park would be closed! All it needs is to remind people they are open, instead of making a big deal out of snow closings or cancellations.

As far as the Radisson goes, the owners, Dan-Mar Corp, based in Plymouth Meeting (Philadelphia), decided to get out of the business while the building was still good. The Danella and Marianni families (who made their fortunes on the Empire landfill in Taylor, PA and became involved in political scandals in 1996's election) bought the building in 1993, and invested over $6 million to build up the business, and redecorate the rooms. It is now time to reinvest, and their heart may not be in it anymore. They are at retirement age, If I am correct, but didn't want to put the building on the sales block for some reason. They are going for easy money from the U. Rob Davis is right when he says the U doesn't preserve, because the only thing they don't tear down are former churches.

What I can't believe is how quickly people in Scranton want to give away business. There is no competition, or hope for a rebound, when competitors come around. If one business, any business, opens, then it's main competitor MUST close down. I can't see how having 300 hotel rooms can destroy a downtown, but then, I'm not in the hotel business. It will be that much tougher drawing an NRHS, or any other convention to town, with only 150 rooms available.