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| HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton Maryland https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12047 |
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| Author: | rs_webmaster [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton, Maryland |
Ok, I'm desperate. After years of puzzling over this, I need some kind of info to remain moderately sane. If one is southbound on I-83, north of Baltimore and just south of the MD/PA border, there is VERY CLEARLY a railroad grade on the west side of the highway. It has a big gap which clearly was (or was to be) spanned by a trestle. My brother worked on a nearby farm and recalls what seemed to be a fill on their property as well. My brother and I have puzzled over this using topo maps, and it appears the line probably would have connected with the Northern Central (later Pennsy) at Parkton, and run generally west, perhaps a bit south of west. I have read a couple books on the NCRR and searched and searched on the web, and can find nothing on this. The MD volume of Logging RRs of PA has no info. On a possibly related note, there is a Narrow Gauge Road which meets the NCRR a ways north of this, north of New Freedom. I found what appears to be cinder-contaminated RoW along it. Anyone know anything about this? If anyone can shed light on these, I would really appreciate it. And I promise not to argue with anyone about why Alco created the Century series... 8-| |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton, Maryland |
I know that area very well, but have never noticed this supposed rail grade in all the decades I've driven I-83. I would have to see the exact locations to which you refer, but in my rather substantial library, I can uncover nothing to indicate any railroad line in that area and direction other than the rather obvious ex-PRR/Northern Central main, now a bike trail. Until our esteemed historian friend and fellow RyPN lurker "csxvet" shows up, let me speculate on the possibilities: 1) an original alignment for the Baltimore & Susquehanna as it proceeded north--extraordinarily unlikely, as I believe the present alignment of the trail is the one and original. 2) a siding constructed to an industry, such as a mill or quarry. Some of these sidings can be quite substantial; as an example, see the sidings that extended off the PRR main at TWO places on the Horseshoe Curve itself. The distance between Parkton and I-83 is quite short, relatively speaking, so this seems the most likely possibility. 3) a "paper railroad" that was planned, but never completed. Many such companies in the boom of the 1870s got as far as grading and engineering, but not rail-laying. Possible, but unless someone identifies a likely destination for what appears to be a branch, very unlikely. 4) Some form of trolley or interurban. Almost impossible. 5) The engineering resembles a railroad grade, but is not. Anything from a millrace, a mill dam, to a farmer's road. Given what little I have to work with, I'll vote for 2 or 5. As for the alleged narrow gauge north of New Freedom, once again I'd need precise locations. There were a plethora of paper railroads proposed as connections as far back as 1837, but none of them as far as I can tell seem to ever have seen even grading. Once again, I'm inclined to suspect a lengthy siding. (And how do we know it's narrow gauge?) |
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| Author: | csxvet [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton, Maryland |
This won't improve your sanity, or mine for that matter. I, too, have noticed the grade but never knew anything about it. A couple of probably useless speculations: In checking the 1877 Hopkins atlas of Baltimore County, it appears that there was a projected Manchester & Parkton RR, which appreached Parkton from the northwest. Obviously it was never completed, but it's possible that this could have been grading for it. In the 19th century there were a lot of paper mills west and NW of Parkton, and it's possible this could have been a private feeder to one or a group of them. The only private line I know of in this general area was the Rockdale RR, which connected a large paper mill at Rockdale with the present WM (CSXT) line west of there, but I have no evidence that this was ever extended east to meet the NC. Why not check Baltimore County atlases in the late and early 20th centuries, and/or check the Baltimore County Public Library's on-line historic photo file? Herb Harwood |
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| Author: | Jeff A. [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Maryland Central?? |
I may be outa line here, after all I'm some 3000 miles away from the area but........ some reference material shows the Maryland Central narrow gauge running thru that general area. Later converted and operated by the Baltimore & Lehigh, then the Ma & Pa until abandonment in the 1950's. Could this grade be what you're seeing? J |
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| Author: | Erik Ledbetter [ Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maryland Central?? |
A worthy guess, but the MA and PA ROW ran well to the east of the area the gents are discussing... |
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| Author: | Ed Fritz [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Maryland Central?? |
From the Library of Congress railroad map collection, I found a RR, the Northern Central RR (NCRR), that ran though the area. Map date is 1895 of Penn. and the Northern Central is marked in red. Parkton is divided by the split in the map and the NCRR ran right through Parkton. 
Ed |
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| Author: | rs_webmaster [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | hypothetical map - Manchester & Parkton? |
I appreciate all the replies. I think Mr Harwood has the best answer when he says: "it appears that there was a projected Manchester & Parkton RR, which appreached Parkton from the northwest. Obviously it was never completed, but it's possible that this could have been grading for it. " Below is a map my brother generated years ago, showing the features he knew existed (arrows), and showing a possible path (fuzzy line). The highway interchange shown is the Parkton/Middletown Rd exit. The direction is certainly reasonable to reach Manchester. It is fairly amazing the amount of grading they did in the first few miles. The fill adjacent to I-83 is substantial! Anyone who has not seen it should go out now; it's almost impossible to miss with snow when southbound. I would like to pursue this in the Baltimore libraries, but am sort of far away... If anyone can suggest documentation on the Manchester & Parkton, it would be great. 
As for the line farther north in PA: My evidence for narrow gauge is just that the parallel road was signed Narrow Gage Rd. I think this is now 'Rockville Rd', intersecting Rt 616 just north of Glen Rock (PA) at the village of Centerville. There was what might be a diminutive station at the intersection of this road with the main road, and a faint RoW seemed to parallel the road and creek. If anyone in the area could explore this, I would appreciate it. Trying to puzzle out these two lines has made me appreciate more than ever the work of the late Ben Kline (and others) in the Logging RRs of PA series. Thanks, Ben! Finally, assuming Mr Harwood is the author of the Baltimore Streetcar 'Postwar Years' book, may I extend my sincere compliments. As a trolley fan and native of Roland Park, the book is a fascinating look at an era of Baltimore I missed, but my parents saw. |
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| Author: | rs_webmaster [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | narrow gauge near Glen Rock, PA |
Thanks to Mapquest, I have found the Narrow Gauge Rd I referred to earlier. I was close, but not quite right... Curiously, it is quite close to a Manchester Rd. Considering our earlier discussion, apparently Manchester was the place to be 125 years ago ;) Here is a link to a map of the location: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&location=%2fB%2bTz8BwLqn9wyLbSjiqCu9vS06S2UMt48zrPGhOcJVMYJ%2fo68ovMNjKCOAkDWqFFj0FV8UgH8QBSdW%2fJQfH%2f%2fHftOw3xsqwhp4ye1JFgOzAbn4AjwMZG0jYYwT9qjQd47EuLyfxxayyis9F9lSNBw%3d%3d The tiny building I referred to could be at the intersection of Rockville Rd and 616, or at Rockville Rd and Kopp Lane. Turn on your rr artifact sniffer, and you will find it! |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: narrow gauge near Glen Rock, PA |
http://www.west2k.com/pastations/york.htm If this is indeed a railway structure, it's stayed off the radar screen of these VERY exhaustive scholars.......... The "Railroads of Pennsylvania Encyclopedia and Atlas" by Tom Taber lists no such narrow gauge railroad in that area, or even in the county save for the Baltimore & Lehigh (Ma & Pa). Also nothing in Hilton's "American Narrow Gauge Railroads". Any ideas, folks? |
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| Author: | Dave Stephenson [ Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: narrow gauge near Glen Rock, PA |
There's a site for old topo maps at http://historical.maptech.com There's a 1902 edition of the Parkton 15' quad, but there's no RR grade shown in the area from Parkton to Rayville. Maybo others can find something. |
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| Author: | andybond13 [ Thu Oct 31, 2024 1:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton Maryland |
RE: Manchester & Parkton. A relative formerly owned a property on Glen Dairy Ct. and was aware of an old railroad grade running along the back of their property, far in the woods, down by the creek. It looks like this was the property line, in fact. In 2024, Maryland's high-quality topo maps (https://geodata.md.gov/topoviewer/) or even Google Maps' terrain layer make this grade easy to identify. It ran from the NCR, branching just south of Dairy Road / Hillcrest Ave, running along Owl Branch. I lose the trace west of Cooper Road, leading into the Genessee Valley property - maybe that's as far as it went. I doubt any of the original posters will see this, but posting to public benefit. |
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| Author: | Overmod [ Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton Maryland |
I don't have time to check this, but there might be information in Open Railway map that would contribute to identification here. |
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| Author: | scratchyX1 [ Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton Maryland |
Overmod wrote: I don't have time to check this, but there might be information in Open Railway map that would contribute to identification here. openrailwaymap does show a Y where there grade would have connected up in parkville,just north of dairy road. |
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| Author: | hankmum [ Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton Maryland |
Have any of you discounted the "Wye" PRR (and NCR earlier) had at Parkton for turning locomotives used for the Baltimore-Parkton local trains? The wye was North and West of the station (station was on the West side (PRR Southbound) tracks. There was also a very small yard and passing track. PRR did serve some small industries in Parkton 100 plus ago but by WWII these were mostly gone. I have a 1940's-1950's track chart around here somewhere for that part of the NC line. If i can find it i'll post what it lists. Old Employee timetables might also list industrial sidings. |
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| Author: | NVPete [ Thu Oct 31, 2024 9:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: HELP! mystery rr grade near Parkton Maryland |
More on the Manchester & Parkton, sometimes referred to as the Parkton & Manchester... ;) http://lostrailroads.com/2009/01/25/mys ... -maryland/ |
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