A topic has come up within my organization that I personally feel pretty strongly about. I thought I'd ask y'all for your opinions, too. We sort of hashed this over here a couple months ago, but I think it's important so I'll bring it up again.

How do you feel about sharing your experiences when something goes wrong at your railroad? I'm talking about the minor derailments, bumps, and goof-ups everybody has, usually with MOW stuff. Let's face it, motor cars are going to go on the ground occasionally, loads are going to slip off of forklifts, cranes are going to drop things... it's inevitable. These are the sort of mishaps I'm talking about. Accidents where the only real injuries are pride and maybe a busted window pane or bent grab iron. I can see keeping quiet about bigger things, where there may be legal ramifications to telling a story.

I feel it's OK to share such "minor mishap" stories for two reasons. First and most importantly, such accidents are usually caused by cutting corners. In such a small industry, run primarily by "weekend warriors," such shortcuts can be disastrous. Sharing stories like these can serve to remind all of us to take the time to do it right and not cut corners. It may cause a few of us to look bad in the short term, but in the long term it benefits the industry/hobby overall. By sharing stories about our small mistakes, we remind others to stay safe and avoid making bigger mistakes.

The second reason I think such incidents should be shared is that such stories make for darned good reading. I like seeing updates on the progress of such-and-such an engine and so on... but reading a good story about somebody's screwup is far more interesting. It's hard to get drama into a story when everything goes right. Stories about mistakes have drama built into them. And drama, after all, is what makes a story interesting.

So, what are y'all's thoughts?

Let me preface what I am about to say with the fact that I work in a chemical plant; not for a tourist railroad, much less an active railroad.

Having said that; the attitude that "accidents are just a part of business" are no longer tolerated in many circles; the petrochemical industry in particular. Zero accidents are the goal; and attitudes and work practices that leave one vulerable to even the "fender benders" mentioned above are not tolerated.

I think non-profit and volunteer organizations should be even more carefull when it comes to safety. They are even less able to replace damaged equipment; much less care for injured employees and their families when these things do happen.

In discussing these incidents when they do occur; we should be looking at them in terms of what was done wrong, and how to make sure they do not occur again. "Romanticizing" them by retelling them as "war stories" only ingrains the attitude that accidents are just a part of the work day; once again, this attitude is no longer tolorated in many circles; and it does not behove the preservation industry to have this attitude either.

Sorry if I what I say rubs anyone wrong; but this is another area where organizations need to make an attitude shift. Otherwise, it only fosters the attitude by some that we are just "grown up kids playing with trains" -- a dangerous way of looking at it when the train now weighs several tons.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

I completely understand where you are coming from, and agree with what you say about zero tolerance and not treating them as war stories, however..... A major difference between your situation and that of many museums is that your situation is that of a full time employee in an industrial enviornment all of whom have gone through safety courses while most museums have few volunteers that come from any sort of industrial enviornment much less have a complete appreciation for the serious nature of an industry like railroading.

It is a good idea for people to share stories if the intent is to learn from them. I personally do feel that in any enviornment a zero tolerance level should be maintained, and that for every accident there was a way to prevent it(short of unforeseen mechanical failure of some sort) and that following an accident, regardless of the severity, everyone should learn from it and take steps to prevent it or anything similar from happening again. The only disturbing issue in my mind is the attitude taken towards even small accidents, ie: no big deal...noone got hurt. I have seen equipment seriously damaged, tender frames collapsed, major castings broken, grab irons torn off, ends of coaches bashed in because they thoUght it would clear or because they thought therE were enough hand brakes to hold it, all with an "oh well" attitude. This is unacceptable.

I have long been of the opinion that all industrial museums be it railroad or otherwise should bring in outside consultants to give courses in industrial safety and rail operations. For this to be of any real use though the attitude of individuals in positions of authority would have to change......I have seen on numerous occasions people that are actually knowledgable or have real world experience be completely ignored because the ones incharge have an attitude of "I've been out here longer than you". This is wrong.

I even know of placeS that operate equipment that is far outside of FRA standards simply because they are not regulated.....They even falseified a Form4(stated the crownsheet thickness was at .375 orignal thickness when in fact in over 20 places there are donut craters around staybolts in the .151-.200 range) so they could have a steam locomotive to play with. Then, once the issue was made public to the board and museum mangment, they continued to operate the loco for over 2 more years because and I quote,"it is not that we disbelieve what was found, we disagree that the locomotive is unsafe to operate". The only reason it is out of service now is because the state wanted them to do an internal inspection. And they still do not realize what a huge error in judgemant/safety it was to have operated that locomotive.

I am of the opinion that it is very difficult to prevent all accidents from occuring in the rail preservation field because working at a railroad museum is the only exposure to real industry for about 95% of the people, and only one day a week at that. Some however, occur because of a complete and utter lack of respect for the machines and equipment involved. I might add that this based upon my experience at museums and may well not be a rule across the board.

I am now off of my soap box.......If anyone was offended I do appologize, but I would like to point out that in order to be offended one must be guilty of some of the issues mentioned.

It's all about a love of history folks, let's all do our best to keep it safe.

Be careful what you discuss. The internet is not a forum where facts or conclusions should be made on any accident/incident where any compensible property damage has occurred (read insurance) - or any injury - whether to a operator or to a passenger - without first consulting with your insurer - or counsel.

While that's the sad part of reality - comments on this board could lead to your deposition or trial testimony if it goes that far - or an admission against your groups interest - if it goes that far. Discussion could I would imagine effect your insurance coverage as well - depending on your policy language.

I'd be very wary and careful of discussing these types of issues on the board from a legal perspective. It's good to learn - but not learn the hard way.

In the corporate world - we do not generally allow witnesses of an incident/accident to discuss it in public. Museums would do well to have a particular point of contact for information - but this board should not be that point.

I will concur loudly with James, and take gentle issue with the "things happen sometimes, and we operate with untrained volunteers" characterizations written here. The volunteer groups that I'm familiar with place a great emphasis on training and safety. Those that don't move forward at their own peril, and will probably regret it one day, with a little help from an injured visitor or volunteer, helped along by an attorney.

That said, my advice would be to zip it. The occasional side-conversation at a TRAIN meeting is one thing. But a "learn from our mistakes" forum here at RyPN (to come up with one example) would be a bad idea. One accident at your place, and all your dirty laundry, relevant or not, is archived, online and easily accessible, for the plaintiff's attorney to find.

Let me put it this way. Something happens at your operation - let's say a volunteer staff member makes a mistake that results in an injury to both that volunteer and a visitor. Both sue your organization. You're called to testify, and the FIRST question out of the attorney's mouth is:

"Mr. Conrad, in January of 2005 did you post the following comment at an Internet discussion board? Would you read it out loud for the jury? Can you explain why, as Curator, you take such a careless and negligent attitude toward safety?" He then hands you a copy of your post, and you have to read, out loud:

Let's face it, motor cars are going to go on the ground occasionally, loads are going to slip off of forklifts, cranes are going to drop things... it's inevitable.

How's that going to look to the jury, and on your resume when you apply for your next job?

Anything you say can, and maybe one day will, be used against you.

So don't say anything you don't have to.

JAC

(edited because trains weren't around in 1005 AD)

I think there is MUCH to learn for whatever source you can - old hands, other tricks of trades, etc. Certainly, we could learn from sharing what went right and what went wrong on a forum.

Why not take the from the old tv show: "The names have been changed to protect the parties involved." There should be a way to post here under cover - maybe thru a mediator?

When a government agency investigates an accident, it is published far and wide - so that new proceedures can be followed to avoid the same thing happening. I see no reason why our industry doesn't do the same.

Jim

Excellent advice - with modern search engines, neither time nor a small original audience (like RYPN) will prevent others from finding Internet postings.

I've had questions about an old posting (8 years), and several from people around the world (the latest from South Africa) about a question I raised on an internal discussion list at U.C. Berkeley.

It's best to assume that postings last forever, and that anybody in the world can (and will) find them.

Al Stangenberger

Hi All
This topic sure looks like an accident waiting to happen. LOL

Seriously accidents are an everyday occurance and as vlounteers and non profits who dont fall under the Jurisdiction of OSHA we have to strive harder to follow safety guidelines and we can set those standards as high as we want. if we want to follow the exact letter of OSHA we can.

As a side thought I have this frined who hurt his toe but didnt want to talk about it. If you want to know the "rest of the story" contact me via email and I will relate it to you.
Andrew Martin

With respect Andrew, I have never found OSHA to have much interest in safety - they are more interested in the promulgation and enforcement of bureaucratic regulations regardless of actual working conditions. Many of their regulations created mutually exclusive sets of conditions I had to cope with in my former career in technical theatre. The assumption that abiding by their rules will eliminate unsafe conditions under all sets of circumstances, or any for that matter, seems a leap of blind faith to me. Better for us all if we build within ourselves the mindset and discipline that we can adapt to our own specific requirements to keep us less likely to be injured, then to have some outside force impose generic ones upon us regardless of practical applicability.

dave

Any lawyer worth his salt would, on redirect or cross, place that comment in the proper context for the jury. If he didn't, I'd be looking for a new lawyer as soon as I was off the stand. That "proper context" being that I was (and still am) referring to very minor incidents, which at most lead to a bruised shin or small cut. If you want to be COMPLETELY safe from injury, sell off or scrap your equipment and shut down your operation. Humans are only human, and while we should certainly strive for zero accidents, we should recognize that we'll never achieve that. S**t happens.

It's sad, actually, that our society has come to this. We have to be so worried about the %$#@ lawyers and bueraucrats that we can't safely share information that could help someone else be safe! Does anyone else see the horrible irony in that?

I would say with the way things get blown out of proportion on the web that we should keep our "accident stories" to ourselves. To much gets taken the wrong way and I think that this subject is headed that way. Now I am a volunteer at a RR museum and yes we have accidents but we don't want them to happen so we really don't talk about it. Unless its a funny one like someone touching the wrong two wires and setting off a horn instead of a break light. Other then that if there are injuries involved or if the public was around this isn't the place to talk about it.

-Eric

Dave wrote " I have never found OSHA to have much interest in safety - they are more interested in the promulgation and enforcement of bureaucratic regulations regardless of actual working conditions " Anybody who has had to deal with OSHA in commercial consruction generaly has a life span of about 40 from heart failure from dealing with their idea of safety. Ask me about having to literaly rig people in a parachute like harness if thry are working X feet off the ground on a ladder in a building. And people wonder about constuction costs??......Wooly