From the FRA Press release about the GSMR I read the folowing:

The GSMR operates primarily as a tourist railroad and carried approximately 167,000 passengers in 2004. It also handles some freight shipments along its 53 miles of track. Located in one of the most economically disadvantaged counties in North Carolina, the GSMR is one of the largest employers in the area. It employs about 46 people full-time and nearly 140 seasonal employees. The GSMR provides an estimated $50 million in economic benefits to the region annually.

This got me wondering about the total economic of historic railroads and museums. If the GSMR has this kind of impact how about collective impact? This might be difficult to figure out for the nation but how about for a single state with a number of sites. What is the impact upon a Colorado or Pennsylvania?

next I started wondering hwo do these places impact each other? Do Middletown & Hummelstown, Strasburg, Wilmington & Western, New Hope, Black River & Western all compete for the same pie or does the number of places increase the overall public interest and make the pie larger. I think probably a little of each.

I am interested to hear others views on these or related quetions.

That $50 Million dollar figure is probably from a standard "money multiplier" view of economic impact. Several years back the C&TS calculated its own figure, which was (going from memory) about $40 Million annually.




There's a common misconception hidden in your question.

That misconception is that a tourist railroad's only or primary competition is other tourist railroads. It's not.

A tourist railroad's competition is every other tourist business in its area. For the Strasburg it's all the theaters, outlet malls, buggy rides, and such within "Pennsylvania Dutch country." For M&H it's most likely Hershey Park. For New Hope, it's the shopping, or Six Flags Great Adventure, or Independence Hall.

I'm willing to bet that fewer than 10% of the folks boarding the NH&I even know that M&H exists, much less chose between the two. Let's say a family from Bergen County packs the minivan and heads for a weekend in Bucks County. The conversation around the kitchen table before that trip was almost certainly not "Honey, should we center our vacation on the M&H or the NH&I?" The choice to ride the NH&I was much more "Wow - Look! An old train - let's ride!" as they walked up Bridge Street from the pizza place back to the shopping area.

If the canal boat had been in view and no. 40 out on the line, the choice would have been different.

With very few exceptions (us), tourist lines aren't destinations for the average American - they are impulse purchases.

JAC

Some years ago, a certain Tourist RR began giving $2.00 bills in change at the ticket office. When the deuces started appearing around the region, the RR pointed out it as THEIR riders who were spending the money.

They made their point quite elegantly.

JAC makes a very important and valid point central to the whole dynamic which drives the tourist railroad business. The overwhelming majority of customers at every tourist railroad(98%) are members of the general public riding to be entertained. Therefore the railroad is competing against every other entertainment product in that market for their patronage. It also mandates that to carry sufficient numbers of riders to pay the bills the railroad must be in a "tourist destination" environment where people are coming to recreate. A vivid example(in reverse) of this truth is Steamtown in Scranton, Pa. which despite an investment of nearly $100 million taxpayer dollars attracts less than 30,000 riders /year vs. Strasburg RR(in the midst of Penna. Dutch tourist country) which carries 350,000/year!!! Clearly the tourist rr's competition is not the other railroads but rather the other tourism products!
Ross Rowland

Just an amusing aside. I regularly spend $2 bills. They are accepted without a second glance in Cuba & all over South America, but try giving a couple to the kid working your local 7-11!

Competition certainly exists with other entertainment venues, but without a critical mass of entertainment venues or attractions, tourists will not come to the area in the first place.

Strasburg has seen declining ridership in recent years which coincides with the overdevlopment and commercialization of Lancaster county - too much success destroyed what tourists wanted to come to see. Must take care about quality and quantity considerations. What does discounted imported textile goods have to do with the Pennsylvania Dutch culture?

A pleasant experience well presented at an impulse time and money commitment in a proven tourist venue has a good chance of success.

As to the regional impact of such as CATS, etc: a hard thing to prove. A few years back, when the fertilizer was impacting the turbine, I was told by more than one person involved that it would be cheaper to just put the few remaining locals on the dole than to subsidize the capital and operating costs of the RR. Fortunately (for those of us not paying taxes in either state) that didn't happen.

Steamtown and Golden Spike NHS certainly bear some scrutiny - does anybody have real figures? One in a decaying urban center, the other in nowhere, both federally subsidized. Might be interesting to compare the two in terms of their purpose and their cash flow.

dave

No disagreement there. I didn't mean to imply that competition is a bad thing - just that looking only at other tourist railroads misses the point.




My take on this is ever-so-slightly different. Some of the falloff is post- 9/11, and it's by no means limited to that area. Subtract the post-"Witness" boom years, and things look like less of a bust, too.

That said, US30 is the poster child for how not to develop an area, and many of the "attractions" have nothing to do with PA Dutch history - but I'm not sure that's a consideration to the average tourist. Would soccer mom and nascar dad stay away because it's not "pure," or is that mindset restricted to folks like you and me who hate that sort of stuff anyway? Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg aren't exactly pure Applachian history, and there ain't a mule team strong enough to drag me there, but it doesn't seem to repel the tourists.




If you limit the subsidy to those directly affected (employees, hotel owners and employees), you might be right. But you could say the same thing about the Museum of New Mexico, or many state parks. Or roads - the impact of upgrades to US 84 south of Chama, or US 522 south of Orbisonia, or US 19 in western NC, are probably hard to prove, too.

JAC

As usual John, we are in agreement mostly - but i do wonder, apart from the "purity" of any collection of attractions with a common marketing theme, whether it be Pa Dutch culture, a large hole in the ground with a river running through it, big rugged cliffs and peaks, whatever, if creating the same generic assemblage of sales outlets that can be found everywhere isn't counterproductive? If you build away what makes your venue special, why should anybody bother to come visit when they can just go to the outlet mall back home, and avoid the agony of travelling with 2.7 children and the expense of road food and motels?

I also wonder about the effect of 9/11 on domestic tourism. Why would anybody be leery of going to Strasburg of all places? Those undercover Amish taliban terrorists? I figure it keeps more people at home who might otherwise be more willing to travel abroad. Probably somebody somewhere has worked up some figures on this.

Anyhow, my recent visit to Strasburg and related areas was somewhat compromised by a lot of flooding, and disappointment in most everything but the railroad stuff (including the M&H). Hershey doesn't tour the real chocolate plant anymore, lots of junky wall to wall shops, but at least you can still get real chocolate and pretzels in Lititz. Maybe the Strasburg should move there?

dave

I remember about 10 years ago being told by a former CEO of Strasburg that they had an overall concern that the urbanization of the county would be detrimental to them. As more farmland was being turned into housing the Amish (and other farmers, if any) were moving out of the area. They were taking the money from the sales and moving to other Amish communities west of Pennsylvania. The chief tourist draw for Lancaster county is the Amish and without them there would less reasons for tourists to visit.

Brian, that is a very interesting point about Strasburg. The first time that I visited Sugarcreek, Ohio and rode the Ohio Central, I envisioned what Strasburg must have been like 25 years earlier. That area of Ohio has a strong Amish population and I still feel that line could have been a success with proper marketing. The jury is still out on that one and I still hope that one day JJJ would like to have steam running on that line again.

Strasburg and Steamtown are often brought up as examples as the potential of historic railroad attractions to generate tourism. However, I would argue that they are outliers - that is they are not represenative of the vast majority of railroad historic sites as they are now or as they would be at their maximum potential. What would be useful is a discussion of the potential for smaller, less dramatic sites to attract visitors - both local and from long distances. When I wrote the Altoona, Wisconsin roundhouse page I used information about that spoke about all forms of heritage tourism. Does anyone know of something that would be more applicable to static displays with interpretation; for example the Port Huron Museum?

Tom Cornillie

http://www.altoonaroundhousemuseum.org

Strasburg and Steamtown are often brought up as examples as the potential of historic railroad attractions to generate tourism. However, I would argue that they are outliers - that is they are not represenative of the vast majority of railroad historic sites as they are now or as they would be at their maximum potential. What would be useful is a discussion of the potential for smaller, less dramatic sites to attract visitors - both local and from long distances. When I wrote the Altoona, Wisconsin roundhouse page I used information about that spoke about all forms of heritage tourism. Does anyone know of something that would be more applicable to static displays with interpretation; for example the Port Huron Museum?

Tom Cornillie

http://www.altoonaroundhousemuseum.org

Brian & company, you've hit a nail on the head.

There have been (to my knowledge) at least two documented instances (and how many more that we haven't heard of) of tourists barging into either the Amish or Memnnonite Information Centers on US 30 to "complain" about an Amish farmer that, rather than pose for the tourist, shied away and hid. (The Amish--to varying degrees, depending on orthodoxy--believe that photography begats idolatry via the photograph and personal vanity, and is thus against the Ten Commandments and other Scripture.) It became obvious, after questioning, that the tourists in question believed that all of "Dutchland" was a tourist attraction akin to Colonial Williamsburg or Henry Ford's Greenfield Village, and that the farmers were paid actors.

It takes some considerable study of the Amish culture to understand just why, but the sad reality is that, for all practical purposes, the Amish culture in Lancaster County is on its last legs, and possibly its last generation. I'm a native of one of the areas where Amish used to flee to in order to carry on their traditions, Snyder County, Pennsylvania. (And my mother was a native of Lancaster proper.) Sadly, Snyder County's become in effect a waystop for Amish in the process of heading to farmland in Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Ontario.

I regret to say that Lancaster County, in perhaps a decade or so, may look very much like the tacky tourist stops along Route 66 that glorified the Indians that were wiped out and/or assimilated a generation ago: sad and tragic. But, sorry to say, unless some Powers That Be declare the entire county and its surrounding townships some kind of Cultural Preserve (with unacceptable restrictions on private ownership and development), it's already too late.

As stated, Strasburg is the king of the road so to speak when it comes to Tourist operations. Smaller lines like the NH&I, M&H, W&W, BR&W are classic examples of "standard operations".

While NH&I is in the heart of a bustling tourist area, their passengers are more or less made up of impulse decisions, rather than the planned vacation to the New Hope & Ivyland. In my years working up there, I saw very few people who came just to ride the train....save for a few railfan families every now and then. More or less, visitors to the town of New Hope used the railroads large and centrally located parking facility to easy access to the shops and other specialty stores in the area. Upon returning to thier cars, and provided the train was in the station, they would upon impulse, purchase a ticket. This is not to say either that the RR's maketing didn't bring in people, it just is not the main bulk of their ridership. Very rarely will you see a big line at the ticket office when the train is not in the station. Once the train is there, so are the people. It's not unlike them to sell over 100 tickets on a busy summer weekend day in a time frame of only 10-15 minutes. Only exception to this would be during the fall season and of course Chirstmas when people are all over the place and many do come just to ride the train.

Their operations, like the Strasburg, used to travel through unspoiled coutryside with many farms and wooded areas lining their right of way. Unfortunately this has become more a thing of the past as the area has seen a major build up over the last 10 years, especially on the north end of the railroad....which is the bulk of their main operations.

The economic impact on the town itself, can't be all that significant, at least according to the town officials, other than local tax money pumped in and local employment. It was stated by some town officials in years past that the railroad was "in their way" and they wanted to try and get rid of it. I remember back in the very late 1980's, the non profit group operating it at the time, was seriously thinking about moving their base of operations to Buckingham to avoid the slack and other problems that were being place on their doorstep, including vandalism. (This was well after their equipment was painted into historical colors and the grounds spruced up) To this day, there are still town officials that don't want the railroad, and wish it would just wither away.

On the other side of this is the Wilmington & Western. Up until their recent round of natural destruction, their passengers would in fact be coming to "ride the train" since the railroad is sort of off the beaten path. There are very few main stream attractions in the area to say that people are riding on impulse. Thats not to say that a local family hasn't shown up to ride after sitting at home wondering "what sould we do today?" It is in fact many of the locals who keep the railroad afloat. Their right of way pretty much remains as it has for the last 40 years of operation, with very few new houses/developments being built.

The W&W like the Wanamaker Kempton & Southern, is one of the few non "main street" type operations left in the tristate area. They don't operate into a main town with shopping galore and they are not next to or close to a theme park. The W&W is in the heart of a rather "Arts and Culture area" with the Brandywine Battlefields, the Brandywine River Museum, many recreation parks and more "slow day" type attractions, with some local shopping here and there. Most of the local shopping centers are in fact not at all based on the tourist dollar but rather the local residents.

W&W offers more of the family prospective vrs. the entertainment type of ride. They do offer themed events throughout the year, but over all they offer the old fashioned, often forgotten, enjoy a relaxing time with your wife and kids "theme"....an hour or so train ride to a picnic grove that you can spend time with your family and just enjoy the day. The W&W operations draw over 35,000 people every year (prior to flooding) The economic impact on New Castle County is significant enough to warrent the assistance of local officials and the residents after the destruction of the railroad from repeated Flooding. The W&W is one of Delaware's top 20 tourist attractions and there is more that just local love for this operation. There are only about 5 paid employees on the railroad, so its economic impact is more on the local economy with money spent at nearby resturants and other local attractions. The railroad is in fact the draw to the area.

Kempton is very similar, being in one of the rather under developed areas relying more on local and repeat customers than the touristy trade dollars. Their overall atmosphere is very "old fashioned family values" and very historically oriented in terms of their equipment and buildings and that is a draw for many as well as the train ride itself through beatuiful, unspoiled, undeveloped countryside. It's short but sweet line hasn't changed much at all in their 40 years of operations. Agian its economic impact is related to the draw of the opeation feeding money into the local businesses, resturants and other nearby attractions. Their operation is 100% volunteer

On the bad side:

An operation that is an example of what may just be the beginning of things to come, was the Kettle Morane Railroad who just closed its doors last year after a rather lengthly(20+ years) opeation. Housing Developements spoiled their open right of way and after pressure from local NIMBYS and other connected reasons, along with lack of Green Scenery to offer their passengers, they simply closed their doors. If in fact the Bucks County and Lancaster County areas, along with others, continue their over development....will certain "big time operation" railroads survive as they are today?

It's well known that Strasburg has seen a decline in ridership, while in more remote areas of the country like Colorado, Alaska, Arizona and others, tourist operations are seeing an increse in numbers.

I don't know, but they seem to do a lot of it. I guess it's like going to Europe, then staying at Holiday Inn and eating at McDonalds? ;)

But then, neither do I understand why people watch TV shows about eating bugs, getting plastic surgery, and trading spouses, or why half the country voted for the other SOB last November instead of my SOB. I'm out of touch with popular American culture, I guess, and thank goodness for it.




Perhaps it was not so much fear, as a desire to "nest" combined with the economic factors of a recession.


JAC