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More construction at SC RR Museum
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Author:  scrmcurator [ Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  More construction at SC RR Museum
Well, two more TEA-21 contracts are now under construction on the old Rockton & Rion Ry. in South Carolina.

After considerable trouble finding a contractor who could do the work with the money we've got available, we finally got started on the restoration of the former Rion Crushed Stone office building last week. This 1934 stone structure burned in the middle 1980s, leaving only the granite walls still standing. The restoration will return the building to almost original appearance (a couple window and door modifications were too expensive to change back to original). The Museum will use this structure as its Rion Quarry depot. The funds for this came from a TEA-21 grant obtained in 2003. As of this weekend, most of the demolition had been completed. The old concrete slab floor was removed, new plumbing for two public bathrooms was roughed in, and the vapor fabric and rebar for the new footings and slab installed. Due to structural concerns about the walls, they'll be just a facade. We're essentially building a brand-new building inside the granite walls.

Meanwhile, another contractor has begun work on installing some new trackage in the Rion Quarry yard. The current main line is being lined and tamped, while the siding that used to run under the car loader is being completely replaced. The new track more or less follows the old alignment, but a few slight changes have been necessary to ease curves and get around the concrete slabs that were added late in the quarry's operations to construct a truck scale. The old R&R was pretty bad about springing ordinary turnouts into wye switches, putting switches on curves, creating short S-curves, and doing countless other ill-advised things with their tracks and equipment. We're fixing all this stuff as we develop Rion. Again as of Saturday, the new grade for most of the "South Track" has been established, much of it with the old track buried in it. I'm told it's already as compacted as it's ever going to be, removing the rail would add expense, and the rail is barely good for even scrap. I'm a little dubious about this, frankly, but am bowing to those with more experience.

Anyway, it looks as if we'll have the track in Rion done by the end of April. This trackwork will alleviate a chronic storage space problem and will make it possible to display only what's got good paint on it in Rockton -- getting rid of the railroad junkyard look we've had for so long. The restoration crew should be going back to work on painting shortly, as it looks as if the really unpleasantly cold weather is now behind us. Next on the list is completing NKP caboose #465, probably returning it to its late N&W paint since that's how the car looked when it was used in SC. Another high priority will be getting some sort of roof to work on stuff under, even if it's only a pole shed. This painting railcars in the hot Carolina sun just don't cut it.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More construction at SC RR Museum
Great news about the construction. I do have an interest in the track work you mention - if your business is preserving the R&R, wouldn't retaining their approach to track engineering be more appropriate than changing it to a more standard spec? I believe one of the most interesting facets of industrial and shortline railroads, which seperates them from the mainlines and provides their colorful, personal nature, is how they made do with what they had, even if it as theoretically impossible, and got trains over the line for decades anyhow. If the R&R likes Y switches and points laid in curves, keep them - they are part of what makes the R&R itself, and certainly didn't prevent the R&R from operating successfully for a long time under much more intensive service than now.

dave
Author:  scrmcurator [ Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More construction at SC RR Museum
Dave wrote:
Great news about the construction. I do have an interest in the track work you mention - if your business is preserving the R&R, wouldn't retaining their approach to track engineering be more appropriate than changing it to a more standard spec? I believe one of the most interesting facets of industrial and shortline railroads, which seperates them from the mainlines and provides their colorful, personal nature, is how they made do with what they had, even if it as theoretically impossible, and got trains over the line for decades anyhow. If the R&R likes Y switches and points laid in curves, keep them - they are part of what makes the R&R itself, and certainly didn't prevent the R&R from operating successfully for a long time under much more intensive service than now.

dave


Your point is well taken, Dave. Here's the counterpoint:

Preserving the R&R's "engineering" (and I use that term very, very loosely when it comes to their track) would be a great idea until you try to explain it to the FRA man. It's also a concept that's a little difficult to explain to passenger car flanges and draft gear. It comes down to a choice between preserving things the way they were, and actually being able to operate them in today's world. Reality, unfortunately, requires a few concessions.

Remember that the R&R was freight-only and was engineered (again, I use that term loosely) for 40 and 50 foot cars. As far as we know, the farthest full-length passenger equipment ever went was the SAC radar train that was parked on a siding at about MP 2.5 (if anyone can provide photographic proof of passenger cars farther west than that we'd be very interested). Today, we're expecting the railroad to handle 72 and 80 foot passenger cars, some with six-wheel trucks, all the way into Rion. You can get away with sharp S-curves with no tangents in them if all you're pulling is 80-ton hoppers. Full-length passenger cars are another matter. There's one spot in the new alignment I'm not so sure about, in fact.

My point is that you've got to make some practical compromises somewhere, and when you're carrying passengers the track ain't the place to do it. I like crooked, weedy track too -- but most passengers don't, and the FRA track man SURE doesn't. Given a choice between character and safety, I'll go with safety every time.
Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More construction at SC RR Museum
Preserving the R&R's "engineering" (and I use that term very, very loosely when it comes to their track) would be a great idea until you try to explain it to the FRA man.

Just to be sure you understand the law regarding the FRA and what they care about track.....If it can "structurally" hold the equipment than they don't care, if it twists and turns to the point you must traverse 26 miles of track to go a mile line of site in the middle of an open field they don't care. Just so long as the track is "structurally" sound.
I do understand the rest of your points however.
Author:  Bob Kutella [ Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More construction at SC RR Museum
Laying new track over the old buried track would raise some questions in my mind. What about the old wood ties causing soft spots and settling as they return to nature? And even if the old rail is not worth re-using we all know the value of scrap iron , today. Harvest those dollars.

Pull out a rail, saw into 3 inch lengths and you have commemorative fundraising bookends.

Bob Kutella
Author:  Dave [ Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  appropriate choices
Well, it does then make one question the decision to acquire and operate 80 foot passenger cars in the first place, given it was the R&R under consideration. Might it not have been sensible to acquire or build cars that suited the railroad instead? I don't mean to pick on SCRM, they are finally enjoying some deserved success after years of trenchwork, just a couple examples posted in the last few days got me thinking.

Safety is a function not only of the blind imposition of "standard book" engineering, but can very easily be calculated under any variety of conditions, including those imposed by a quarry line, providing the geometry, materials and maintenence, and SUITABILITY OF ALL OPERATING COMPONENTS work together as a synergistic whole. That red herring is now swimming away.

Which brings to mind the FEC 148 on the Creede branch as well, and the interestingly conceived plan to use a consist of 3 heavyweight coaches in a 10 minute shuttle train (over a 4% grade with a 0-4-0T as power) at another southeastern museum, when a couple cabeese or a lightweight commuter car could carry the anticipated passenger load.

Guys, are we trapping ourselves by failing to consider the entire picture when making operating / mechanical / technical choices? I know Matt and Co could put the funding they are now forced to use to change their track alignment to other purposes, just as one example. The increased maintenence cost and limited capacity of a lightweight, high drivered, flatland, fast commuter engine on a Colorado mountain branchline will at some point (hopefully) make itself felt.

Not only are these symptoms of inappropriate economic choices in a big picture, long-run frame of reference, but are historically out of character as well. Might a pattern be forming?

Perhaps blindly imposing historically accurate choices (with perhaps some modern incremental retrofitting for economy's sake) would be the best yardstick we could use in making these decisions - after all, what worked well for decades will be more likely to continue to work well than something very different in scale or designed purpose.

So why, then, are we doing this sort of thing? Am I obsessing about something actually unimportant? Do we just not have a real plan in mind when we start building / acquiring? Do we grab now and worry later rather than consider the total impact of our acquisitions carefully? Do we acquire on the basis of only a couple considerations rather than a fit into a complete operating strategy? Do we even HAVE an understood, rational operating strategy to guide us?

As they say on NPR, i will take my answers (if any) off the air....

dave
Author:  scrmcurator [ Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: appropriate choices
Dave wrote:
Well, it does then make one question the decision to acquire and operate 80 foot passenger cars in the first place, given it was the R&R under consideration.


Most of our cars came first. SCRM's early hsitory was one of trying to find a railroad -- any railroad -- in South Carolina that we could move the CCNRHS stuff to. The CN cars were acquired later, yes, but that was after we already had an 80-foot diner from Charleston. And while I like Bonsal's operation up by Raleigh, the comfort of their seating leaves a bit to be desired. There's something to be said for carrying passengers in real passenger cars.

Also, the track that we're replacing is not salvageable. It's been buried in quarry fines for at least 40 years. It was lousy track when the R&R shut down and 30 years of disuse (not to mention canibalization) haven't helped it. That track NEEDED to be replaced, and was nowhere near structurally sound. Also, the R&R moved tracks around in Rion quite a bit, so there's no telling WHAT the alignment was originally.

Finally, I don't see practical changes like what we're doing at Rion as violating the spirit of historic accuracy. We're still doing things the way the R&R did -- opportunistically using whatever is available in the most efficient manner to keep our trains on top of the railhead and moving, and money coming into the coffers.

No, concrete ties and CN coaches seem out of place on our railroad. BUT -- if the R&R were still in business and had shifted to a passenger railroad, as we are, I'd bet about anything that they'd have made similar decisions to ours. The CN cars fit our needs, were available, and weren't too expensive. Same about the SW8s, which some folks commented about when we got them. The concrete ties we're using in Rion were free. The 100# rail we used in the Greenbrier Cut was free. We may not be using historically accurate materials and equipment, but we *ARE* using a historically accurate philosophy -- to make whatever we can find the cheapest work. And if that's not authentic shortline railroading, then I don't know what is!
Author:  Eric B. NJMT [ Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: appropriate choices
Any pics of the rebuild?

-Eric
Author:  scrmcurator [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: appropriate choices
Eric B. NJMT wrote:
Any pics of the rebuild?

-Eric


I've forgotten to take my digital with me the last two weekends. I'll try to remember this weekend. We have to move the derelicts for the contractor Saturday AM, which given the awful track they're sitting on should be interesting. Included is 1903 BLW 2-8-0 #712, the original tender from R&R #19, Columbia Silica 23-ton GE #10, Columbia Silica 45-ton Porter #5, the R&R's 8-ton Vulcan, a four-wheel dump car, and Tamper's prototype tie inserter TR-1. I'm rather looking forward to this. Power will be one of our Air Force RS4TC-1A diseasles.
Author:  scrmcurator [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More construction at SC RR Museum
Bob Kutella wrote:
Laying new track over the old buried track would raise some questions in my mind. What about the old wood ties causing soft spots and settling as they return to nature? And even if the old rail is not worth re-using we all know the value of scrap iron , today. Harvest those dollars.

Pull out a rail, saw into 3 inch lengths and you have commemorative fundraising bookends.

Bob Kutella


It caused questions in mine, too. I asked about this very thing. Apparently, the contractor dug a couple holes and checked. The ties have long since rotted away. All that's holding gauge (and I use that term loosely) in that old track is the dirt and habit. He also said that extracting the rail from the hard-packed quarry fines would cost more than the rail is worth. Our President is pretty good at getting the most bang for our buck and the contractor also happens to be a member.
Author:  scrmcurator [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Pix
Here are a couple pix from last Friday, 2-4-05. These are on the scrm-list yahoo site, you may have to temporarily join the list to see them.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/scrm-list/vwp?.dir=/RION+work&.dnm=Scale+pits+%26+new+grade+2-4-05.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
This shows the new grade just to the left of the two scale pits behind the
office, which will become the Rion Quarry depot. Those concrete pads on
either end of the second pit were poured right over the old rails. To save
having to spend a lot of extra $$$$ on demolition of the pads, we're going
around them and recycling the pads into a passenger platform. The space
between the pads where the scale pit was (which was filled in with fines in
the early '80s) will be leveled with small granite pavers that we've got
lying about in droves. The scales closer to the building are still intact and
very restorable. They'll get new ties and rail plus some sort of decking for
safety, since we're going to have the public walking over the scale to get
to the new platform. You can see the new roadbed gently swinging back to
more or less the original alignment. The section of track past the scales
was removed completely and it's impossible to determine exactly where it
was.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/scrm-list/vwp?.dir=/RION+work&.dnm=Office+building+work+2-4-05.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
This shows the northeast corner of the office/depot building. The old floor
has been removd and the prep work for the new slab/footings completed.
That corner window was a modification that Winnsboro Granite did at an
unknown time. It was originally two windows. I haven't been able to
determine why or when the change was made, but it's too expensive to
undo it so we're leaving it.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/scrm-list/vwp?.dir=/RION+work&.dnm=Grading+the+new+ROW+2-4-05.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
This image shows the view roughly southeast from the driveway. The
damaged granite ramp-looking thing is the base of the conveyor that went
to the car loader, long since scrapped. The ramp-like thing behind it is the
base for one of the crushers. The old track is still intact here and is
actually more visible than it has been in years -- see if you can see it! The
dozer is right on top of the rails.
Author:  jd johnson [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pix
Matt,

I joined the group at Yahoo but get only an group error. Am I doing something wrong or what?

Thanks

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian
Author:  scrmcurator [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pix
jd johnson wrote:
Matt,

I joined the group at Yahoo but get only an group error. Am I doing something wrong or what?

Thanks

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian


Exactly what error message are you getting? I just checked the group member list and you're on it. You shouldn't be getting any errors.

First, make sure you're logged in to Yahoo. You should see your username in the bar immediately under the banner ad at the top of the page. There should also be a "Welcome <youruserid>" next to the Yahoo logo. If it has something generic there you're not logged in.

Yahoo isn't the greatest service in the world, I admit, but the price is right (free).
Author:  jd johnson [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pix
Matt,

I tried again but the error is still there and I guess I am not logged in.

The error is such:

Error
GROUP_CHECK

gpg8.bc.scd.yahoo.com:GROUP_CHECK

I would like to see your photos. I have long admired your effort.

Thanks,

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian
Author:  scrmcurator [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pix
jd johnson wrote:
Matt,

I tried again but the error is still there and I guess I am not logged in.

The error is such:

Error
GROUP_CHECK

gpg8.bc.scd.yahoo.com:GROUP_CHECK

I would like to see your photos. I have long admired your effort.

Thanks,

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian


Hmm. I have no idea what's causing that. I can get to the group website just fine. Follow this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrm-list/

Let's try something different. I've put the pix on my personal webserver, maybe that'll work better.

This is the shot of the new ROW being graded:
Image

Here's a vew of the back of the building and the two pits, one filled in and the other with the scale still intact:
Image

And here's the building itself:
Image
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