I am curious as to the plan associated with a heavyweight ex Erie or Erie Lackawanna business car in Scranton. I remember a few years back, seeing the car with a black tarp over it. What car number is it, what year was it built, condition on inside and out ?? etc .

Can someone comment on the condition of this car, who actually owns it, the age, builder, interior and exterior condition along with future plans for this car. ( such as local operation, Amtrak compatiability etc )

I believe it was a steel car, painted gray and burgandy ( ie Erie Lackawanna ) Is the car presently being restored, or still store there with a tarp over it, or has it moved on ?

Hello

The car to which you refer is Erie #3. Originally built for the Nickel PLate Road, the car was never delivered. This car was painted in the EL scheme until the late 90's when it was repainted in the two-tone Erie scheme, an unusual period choice for a steam museum (this was a diesel era paint job on the Erie.)

The car has been on display in the Steamtown National Historic Site "History Museum" for several years now as a walk-through exhibit. Its not "pristine" but last time I visited, people seeed to be enjoying it. The car is actually in an incorrect tan and green Erie scheme instead of the mint green and dark green the Erie used.

As far as the mechanical condition of the car, from what I remember while employed there it was in decent but not great shape. It was struck by a piece of equipment while in Vermont which did some damage to the end of the car, rumors of a bent/cracked frame persisted as well, but I'm not sure if that's really the case.

Friction bearing trucks were swapped for roller bearing ones pulled from the L&N RPO with the thought that the car would see more use. Some work was put into an air conditioning system but for one reason or another the whole project was shelved a few years ago after many thousands of dollars were put into it. It would likely take another 100K to make it Amtrak compatable.

Unfortuantely the friction bearing trucks from the #3 are now under the L&N 1100 RPO, which, in its current paint scheme (as restored by Steamtown), would not have had friction trucks in the time period depicted. The RPO is still complete with zipcodes and a modern stove, so it really doesn't represent any particular point in time to be honest. The bare hardwood floor of the 1100 was also incorrectly painted red as well. RPO floors of course were bare wood, to reduce the possibility that the floors would become dangerously slippery when wet when picking up mail on-the-fly during inclement weather.

Dave Crosby

Dave,

There is one other thing about ex-Erie heavyweight equipment that will make any idea of Amtrak legal all the more expensive/difficult. For some reason Erie heavyweights have all of their heavy wiring in loom rather than in conduit, which you would see if you took a good close look at the underside of EL 3; the 1070 and 1076 are/were also done this way (sold by the Foundation at auction before the NPS takeover). I do not think this a worry to the NPS, though, because I cannot think of any reason why anyone would want to make the 3 Amtrak legal.


Steve Zuiderveen

from Geo. Elwood's site:



http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-bc3agd.jpg

The 1949 SP RPO that I'm working has a floor delivered new painted red and covered with varnish.....

Smokebox

Oops, didn't mean to make a blanket statement there. I was going on remarks from a retired postal worker I had the pleasure of meeting one day who worked in quite a few cars and had never seen one painted. In any case, the floor of L&N 1000 was never painted before the late 90's.

Dave Crosby

Getting back to Pullman's question, you may have two Steamtown cars confused. Erie no. 3 was in the restoration shop from 1995 to 1997. It was meant to be the Steamtown management private car to entertain, as a business car would have, various dignitaries. I believe it now has 110 volt, possibly 480 v, current air-conditioning, electrical and other components, but is not Amtrak compatible, because Scranton is 120 miles from any Amtrak interchange. It may see use on a main line trip, but the last time, perhaps only time, it was on a Steamtown trip was the 1997 November excursions to Analomink. It may also have been employed on the 1997 beer train to the ill-fated Franconia brewery in Mt. Pocono.

The tarp-covered car was B&O Southwestern RR car no. 903. This tarp is prone to blowing off, but is re-fitted at least once a year. B&O Southwestern was one of four divisions of the B&O RR, I think its was the Southern Ohio and Indiana to St. Louis region, but I may be wrong.
No. 903 was built by Pullman Palace Car Co. in 1895 as a wooden car, but was modernized in the 20s and 40s. It is now an Air conditioned, and steel sheathed wooden car. It was a walking-tour item in the early 1990s, but has been stuck in the yard for several years. It can never be made Amtrak compliant because of age and method of construction.

Steve:

Once again I will expose my ignorance as I am prone to do on this board.

I know what conduit is. What is "loom"?

Thanks, as always in advance.

Scott

Scott,

Please don't take it so hard!

To protect modern exterior wiring on railcars, it is all placed in conduit, or pipes, underneath the car, and to a certain extent inside of the car also, particularly if it is of high voltage (over 150 volts according to OSHA). The old fashioned wiring on the EL 3 has the old cloth and rubber insulation; and instead of being placed in conduit, it is bound together in loom, which means that the wires are bundled together, and then bound with a very strong linen cord in a kind of crochet type of knotting system. Sometimes the loom is painted over with an insulating varnish. A friend of mine restored a B&O color position light signal, he knew the knotting sequence, and when he rewired it, all of the wires from the back of the lamps to the control box were done in this way also.

A Google search finds that it still an automotive term; the loom now is a plastic corrugated tube spit lenghwise that the wire is laid in, then taped over. Sometimes it is an open spiral plastic tupe which can be threaded over the wire bundle. The Google search also seems to indicate that it is a more British than American term.

Steve Zuiderveen

Ouf of the three business cars in Scranton ( The EL car mentioned / the B&O car / and the LV 353 ), are any kept indoors ? What is the condition of the B&O car ( inside and out ) and what are the plans for it ? ( if any ), and same for the Erie car ? Does it have a modernized interior or more original in its configuation ( wood or steel interior ?? ) and as far as the LV 353 ( I know its privately owned ) , does it retain its Amtrak certification ? and how often is it used up there ??

thanks for the knowledge !

Is the issue of "loom" unique to cars of the Erie ( or Lackawanna ), or a common Pullman techique of years ago ? I have heard of "loom" however never saw this techique used below a car body. On a side note regarding passenger car mechanical issues pertaining to Amtrak compatiability, conduit is used above the trucks, to protect the HEP cable from damage caused by the truck and or risk of damage above the truck when the car is moving. Across the bottom of a car, HEP cable is run outside of conduit on rubber hangers into a stainless steel junction box. I assume that conduit is not used throughout the entire underbody perhaps due to heat load caused by the 480 volt cables ? Is this true, or perhaps is there another issue which dictated cable to be strung outside of conduit ?

Out of curiousity, does a spec exist for fuel lines run below a car body, say from generator to fuel tank ? ( I am presently operating under the assumption that no spec currently exists )

So many cars are unique and different. Can a car legally run on Amtrak with a spicer drive / axle driven generator ?

On cars presently being restored, is 27 pin communication lines a must have ? or is this up to the owner ? I understand the limitations of not having it. However was curious if it is mandatory today.

I know marker lights must be on a separate circuit utilizing batteries as a back up should a car lose HEP, and the generator fails. I assume that no interior emergency lighting circuits are required other than for rear end train protection.

and two other questions ?

are UC valves still approved for use on a private car running in Amtrak service ? What is the rebuild duration for a UC valve on an Amtrak compatiable car ?

Propane I understand is still used on a handful of cars for cooking. Tanks are typically mounted under the car body. Did spec's exist on cars with propane and that were Amtrak compatiable, in regards to tank enclosures, tanks themselves, piping etc. If so, was it like a home barbeque operation with tanks and fittings or did most cars have some quick disconnect connections, and were these tanks pipe together to allow say 4 25lb tanks to be used, and as one became empty, the next one continue to send gas. Or did the owner have to change the supply line to each tank as it ran out ?

thanks so much for the forum to ask and for the knowledge of others !

Answers within body of question:

Is the issue of "loom" unique to cars of the Erie ( or Lackawanna ), or a common Pullman techique of years ago ?

In my personal experience I have only seen it to this extent under Erie cars, but that is not to say someone else did not do it.


I have heard of "loom" however never saw this techique used below a car body. On a side note regarding passenger car mechanical issues pertaining to Amtrak compatiability, conduit is used above the trucks, to protect the HEP cable from damage caused by the truck and or risk of damage above the truck when the car is moving. Across the bottom of a car, HEP cable is run outside of conduit on rubber hangers into a stainless steel junction box. I assume that conduit is not used throughout the entire underbody perhaps due to heat load caused by the 480 volt cables ?
Is this true, or perhaps is there another issue which dictated cable to be strung outside of conduit ?

That is correct. The Amtrak HEP system is designed to carry 1200 amps at 480 volts. The specifed cable for open air has to have a minimum 600 volt insulation, and most use the heavier 2000 volt insulation, as protection against "rail rash".


Out of curiousity, does a spec exist for fuel lines run below a car body, say from generator to fuel tank ? ( I am presently operating under the assumption that no spec currently exists )

There is a new FRA standard applying to fuel tanks under "passenger equipment". It is clearly applicable to commuter and Amtrak (cars regulated under Part 238) It is not clear as to Private Cars, and does not apply to tourist and excursion; however if any installation is so shoddy to be a danger to the Public, the FRA can write you up anyway(Part 216 Special Notice for Repairs)

So many cars are unique and different. Can a car legally run on Amtrak with a spicer drive / axle driven generator ?

Yes, a Spicer is still legal.

On cars presently being restored, is 27 pin communication lines a must have ? or is this up to the owner ? I understand the limitations of not having it. However was curious if it is mandatory today.

27 pin was mandatory since about 1991, however, the AAPRCO folks have griped long enough that it is not now required; however, if you do not have it, and for some reason they cannot put you on the back of the train, you are set out.


I know marker lights must be on a separate circuit utilizing batteries as a back up should a car lose HEP, and the generator fails. I assume that no interior emergency lighting circuits are required other than for rear end train protection.

That is correct; however for Part 238 equipment (see above) it is mandatory and must last at least 90 minutes.

and two other questions ?

are UC valves still approved for use on a private car running in Amtrak service ? What is the rebuild duration for a UC valve on an Amtrak compatiable car ?


UC's are still legal, however the Engineer for Private Cars at Amtrak has stated that he will accept no "new" cars; and is considering requesting the CMO of Amtrak to stop the use, due to possible road failures and lack of parts. Although Part 238 through a crack in the regulation allows 3 years, Amtrak will only allow operation for 15 months.

Propane I understand is still used on a handful of cars for cooking. Tanks are typically mounted under the car body. Did spec's exist on cars with propane and that were Amtrak compatiable, in regards to tank enclosures, tanks themselves, piping etc. If so, was it like a home barbeque operation with tanks and fittings or did most cars have some quick disconnect connections, and were these tanks pipe together to allow say 4 25lb tanks to be used, and as one became empty, the next one continue to send gas. Or did the owner have to change the supply line to each tank as it ran out ?

There was an AAR specification for these tanks, and while out of print, its is still considered the regulation by Amtrak. Commonly referred to as Waukesha tanks, the are incredibly heavy and strong, and weigh 125 lbs to carry 100 lbs of propane. All the tanks in a box were manifolded together. These tanks are now old, plus they are not equipped with the modern safe fill valve, wich is now required; so most propane places will not fill them. There use is prohibited through the tunnels that enter NYC.

thanks so much for the forum to ask and for the knowledge of others !


Steve Zuiderveen
(sometimes Amtrak PV inspector)

thanks Steve for all the information. Very interesting, how is your knowledge on Business cars that were built by AC&F and Pullman. I know that a number of AC&F cars are still running, and a number of heavyweight Pullman cars are still running. Based upon design, was one design superior to the other ? What are / were the pro's and con's to both ? And if you know, how did they generally compare to home shop built business cars such as the PRR Z series or didn't the Santa Fe have some home built or off line built business cars ? I am sure there were plenty other home shop built cars ( especially light weight business cars )

and on the same subject, I am sure you have looked at 100's of cars. Speaking of heavyweights, when looking at design, the cars that were converted diners, coaches, etc, years ago when they were converted, are problems consistent with cars such as this ? I seem to recall a number of collision post issues in recent history. How bout cars that were diner's, coaches, sleepers etc and then by the railroad were converted to a business car in regard to truck weight and design ? Is it safe to say if a railroad converted a car years ago, that strong engineering was done on weight calculations to make sure the trucks ( or new trucks ) springs, etc had a center plate loading sufficient to handle the weight of the newly rearranged car ?

I realize that companies like General Steel Castings are no longer in business or no longer producing passenger car trucks. However, if as an example, I had a pair of trucks sitting in front of me, how could I detirmine the center plate loading. I assume that the serial number cast on the trucks can be read and then related to some document that would given this design data ?

I appreciate your time and you sharing the knowledge of your experiences !

The old-fashioned fabric loom is still available. Try Maney Wire & Cable:

http://www.maneywire.com

Al Stangenberger
Western Railway Museum