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Continuous Brakes
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12497		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  davidwoodbury [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Continuous Brakes
When last I looked, there were some operators running passenger carrying trains without either positive air or vacuum brakes. (EDITED BY MODERATOR - USING PARTICULAR OPERATION'S NAMES IN THIS WAY IS CONSIDERED INFLAMITORY. IF A POSTER HAS QUESTIONS ABOUT FRA COMPLIANCE OF A PARTICULAR OPERATION, PLEASE DIRECT YOUR QUESTION TO THE OFFICERS OF THE RR. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN LEARNING ABOUT THE APPICABLITY OF FRA RULES, THEN ASK A GENERALIZED QUESTION HERE ON RYPN. - Thanks, Ed) come to mind. Does such a practice, even if legal, make sense in this day and age? Is the two foot equipment even retrofitible with proper scale brake rigging? I realize that the engines are fitted out with steam jams, maybe this is enough for safe operation.
Author:  Jeff A. [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuous Brakes
Bear in mind that this is one man's opinion, but the short answer is yes........depending on the specific operation. You're obviously talking about light narrow gauge equipment, to which a somewhat different set of dynamics applies than, say, a mainline railroad or even a standard gauge branchline operation. Generally, heritage equipment is allowed an exemption by FRA or other governing entities, to allow them to operate in the same way they have historically done. E.g....The Monson RR operated this way throught its history. Many (perhaps most) of the log haulers the same. Even today, construction trams in mining and tunneling operate with only locomotive brakes. The Palmetto Brick Co.'s narrow gauge line hauls fairly long trains of clay-filled hoppers using only armstrong brakes on their Plymouth lokies. They still use link & pin coupling too.
I've done it myself a time or two (better not say where) but it involved a two-car train and 10-ton critter with only a 4-foot long lever and the engineer's muscle to apply brakes. We got stopped just fine. Of course there is less braking power but this is somewhat offset by the fact it can be applied instantly without the lag time normally associated with air. There are, of course limitations to this type of operation - I'd not want to bring a 15-car train off a 4% grade this way - but under many museum or tourist operating conditions I'd say it's both safe and legal.
J
Author:  Dave [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuous Brakes
I recently inspected a small theme park with a narrow gage steam operation. The locomotive was equipped with a steam jam, but it was not functional. The car it pulled had no brakes. The line crossed a couple on site roads and pedestrian trails. One of my recommendations (apart from removing the locomotive from service until it could be repaired) was fitting the car with some form of brake.

In this litigious society, with the high cost of liability premiums, it makes good sense to operate under a recognised set of national standards and practices whether you are regulated or insular. Consider how that question will sound when answered in court when - not if - you are sued. It may not have to be FRA, but should be some appropriate code.

And, BTW, i also ran more than a few trips on a 2 foot with just a hand brake on the tender - as sanity breaks during an almost endless wooden car job. I reckoned at the time it was safe enough provided there were no mechanical failures. If something failed, SOL.

dave
Author:  Chris Salmonson [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuous Brakes
I imagine that running a passenger train w/o brakes on the cars would add discomfort to the passengers with all the jarring when the slack runs in and out.
Author:  scrmcurator [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuous Brakes
Jeff A. wrote:
The Palmetto Brick Co.'s narrow gauge line hauls fairly long trains of clay-filled hoppers using only armstrong brakes on their Plymouth lokies. They still use link & pin coupling too.


Well, the clay trains are 8 cars. I don't know if I'd really call that "long," especially since the cars are four-wheelers. The whole train is maybe 100 feet. There *is* a lot of slack in those trains, though.

I think part of the way they get by with the hand brake only is because the brick plant is at the top of a small hill. With a little practice, you wouldn't even have to use the brake to stop the loaded train, just close the throttle then pull back on the brake to hold things in place. Unloading is handled by a cable dummy.

I'll admit that I was amazed when I realized I was watching them couple link-and-pin couplings. One thing I noticed is that the brakeman (also the dummy operator) made the couplings by holding the link up with the pin. I still don't think I'd feel comfortable getting right between a 10-ton Plymouth and a train of four-wheel dump cars, though.

As for no brakes on passenger trains, many park train installations have only an engine brake. Chance's "CP Huntington" trains and the "big" Crowns have air brakes on the cars -- can't recall if the Crown 2-footers do or not -- but most of the 15" gauge Crowns and Cagneys rely on engine brakes only. One park engine I've ridden was stopped by putting her in reverse and opening the cylinder cocks.
Author:  Stephen S. Syfrett [ Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuous Brakes
I'm not sure if the operation Dave referenced is the same or not, but if it is, I had the opportunity to run the train a couple of times in 1996 and 1997. At that time the steam jam brake on the loco was operating, and yes, it was impossible to control drawbar slack on the 2 cars they hauled then. The only saving grace was that the train was coming down grade into the station, so at least the station stop was relatively smooth with the slack bunched up. I understand that they have sometimes operated the train in the opposite (clockwise) direction, and the station stop would be slightly uphill, so the smoothness of the stop depended on the skill of the (usually solo) operator using the steam jam brake. At other locations on the loop, it was pure rock and roll.
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