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| cuba https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1261 |
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| Author: | Steve Gilbert [ Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | cuba |
Read the article on "Repatriating American Steam from Cuba" and was blown out of my chair like a failed crown sheet when I read the "recently scrapped Philadelphia & Reading camelback 4-6-0" ! Can anyone give me more details of what it was? and are there any others? S.Gilbert, past President, Reading Co. T.& H.S. rbmnrr@early.com |
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| Author: | Michael Allen [ Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: cuba |
> Read the article on "Repatriating American Steam from Cuba" [snip]"recently scrapped Philadelphia & Reading camelback 4-6-0" (User Above) wrote: : ::Steve, I think you misread Mr. Mitchell's article. There was no mention of "recently" in his discussion of the P&R 4-6-0. There have been historic engines scrapped recently, but the P&R is long gone. The Cuban Sugar Ministry (MINAZ) went to a national numbering scheme in 1975. The P&R engine never made it into the national scheme, so was out of service prior to 1975 and probably scrapped by that date. It has certainly not survived the intervening 25 years. Most of the ex-US engines mentioned in Mr. Mitchell's list as being derelict or out of service have either been scrapped or dismantled in the past three or four years. The excellent "Industrial Steam Locomotives of Cuba" book can be confusing, as it mentions every engine ever seen in Cuba, from visits starting in the early '70's, as well as engines known to have been sent to Cuba. If you don't see the words "present" or "in-use" with a date of 1995 or later, the engine is most likely gone. Some of the engines seen by enthusiasts post 1995 have been scrapped as well. Cuba has been actively scrapping engines that are no longer useful even for parts. For some perspective on repatriating locos, check out John Craft's "Steam Central" web site for a recent article on Cuba, including photos of a boiler explosion last February. Equipment is so totally worn out, it is unlikely that a single boiler could ever pass US codes. Worn out running gear is all that is left. Since 99.5% of the remaining Cuban engines were built new for Cuba, there isn't much historic value in bringing them back to the States and no operational value in doing so. Preserved US and Canadian park locos or modified Chinese locos are far better candidates for tourist road operation. However, you might want to go to Cuba just to experience real working US steam in action. Trains Unlimited Tours has received Treasury Department approval to run a tour to Cuba this March. It is sold out, but perhaps they will run another one next year. I was fortunate enough to have visited on a 1981 tour run by Rail Study Tours, also with Treasury Department permission. It was the trip of a life time! Enjoy! a231pacific@aol.com |
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| Author: | Steve Gilbert [ Thu Jan 11, 2001 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: cuba |
> the P&R 4-6-0. There have been historic > engines scrapped recently, but the P&R > is long gone. Long gone...naturally. My questions remain.What was this engine (P&R/RDG #?) and were (are) there any others? I have seen the recent stories and photos mentioned, and it is interesting, to be sure. But a P&R camelback is the "holy grail" to a 70+ piece READING collection. (The RCT&HS, based in Leesport, PA. is 25 years old in 2001 -wow, what a birthday present that would make). Who has info...photos?...movies! of the Cuba Camelback(s). I guess what we all need is a "way-back-machine". |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Thu Jan 11, 2001 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cuba and Camelbacks |
The Industrial Railway Society book mentioned in my RyPN article lists just about every loco that they could get any info on. As noted, the vast majority of the survivors are locos built for sugar companies. In other words, don't even think of that NYC Hudson, PRR T1, or SR Ps-4 tucked in a tunnel or barn. The IRS lists, thanks to bands of roving Canadians and Brits snooping, are considered definitive as to what WAS there. What is and could be salvageable is open to debate. Though there really aren't any confirmed "crown jewels" that "must" be saved as a huge gap in preservation (the P&R Camelback was by far and away *the* most exotic U.S. loco in Cuba, with former NYC "El" 0-4-4T locos a close second), there is nothing to prevent, say, Six Flags or Disney or Busch Gardens from stepping in and repatriating a dozen or two basket cases to be refurbished in a manner akin to the Yucatan locos rescued by Disney for Disney World. For that matter, about two dozen presumed survivors have enough horsepower (2-8-0's and 2-8-2's)to be contenders for serious working restoration by "well-heeled" operations such as Grand Canyon, Strasburg, etc. On that note, I had a mutual associate (who also went in apoplexic shock at a P&R Camelback getting away) inquire of one of the major steam loco shops what would be involved in crafting a new replica boiler for these Cuban engines (weld where you want, they only have to fit and operate). The ballpark estimate was $100,000-125,000. Add in running-gear work, transport, etc. Consider that there are enough locos of similar parentage that the possibility exists for mass-producing a dozen identical boilers for a fleet, thus saving dollars. My verdict thus far: discounting "heroic" rescues of, say, a PRR 2-8-0, a PL&W 2-6-0, or the NYO&W loco, the value of such repatriation is for the opportunity for operable replacements for historic steam already in the U.S. Get a light 4-6-0, get it rebuilt, and retire Escanaba & Lake Superior 14 at Arcade & Attica to a museum before the boiler laws catch up. Let Strasburg and Conway retire rough-on-the-track CN 0-6-0's in favor of 2-6-0's rebuilt to good-as-new and ready for 50 years of service. Get parts to replicate a B&O 4-6-0, a Ma & Pa 2-8-0, or a EBT or D&RG 2-6-0, or a Tweetsie loco, and retire the historic locos to preserve them. LNER4472@gateway.net |
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| Author: | Michael Allen [ Fri Jan 12, 2001 2:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: cuba |
> Long gone...naturally. My questions > remain.What was this engine (P&R/RDG #?) (User Above) wrote: ::According to "Industrial Steam Locomotives of Cuba" it was P&R 534, BLW 10708 of 1890. > and were (are) there any others? ::None listed. Lots of other RR's though, including PRR, Philadelphia Belt Line and Huntington & Broad Top Mountain, to name some others from Pennsylvania. > Who has info...photos?...movies! of the Cuba > Camelback(s). ::Probably no one. If you want to do some research, the current mill name is Sierra Maestra in Pinar del Rio Province. The pre-revolution name was La Francia. If you can find some old Gilmore's sugar annuals from the '40's and '50's you may be able to get rosters for the mill. I assume you will need to check with the Library of Congress or the New York Public Library to find these volumes. Contact Wayne Weiss at Bellaire Roundhouse in Bellaire Texas, for any information he may have. He is probably the best source of information in the States. Good luck with your search. a231pacific@aol.com |
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| Author: | Dave [ Fri Jan 12, 2001 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: cuba? How about Haiti? |
Has anybody tried looking up what may be left in Haiti? Haitian - American Sugar Co ran a fleet that inlcuded Glover engines back before the depression - who knows what may be rusting away in the cane fields there? Dave irondave@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Steve Gilbert [ Fri Jan 12, 2001 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: cuba |
> ::According to "Industrial Steam > Locomotives of Cuba" it was P&R > 534, BLW 10708 of 1890. GREAT ! Thanks for the info. Now, where are the photos. . .and if the remains of the 534 are still on a pile in a Cuban field, we have some talented welders up here. . . Any leads on a Milholland Gunboat ? . . . how about a P&R bobber caboose ? |
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| Author: | Aaron Berger [ Sat Jan 20, 2001 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: cuba |
Are there any other Reading or Philidelphia & Reading Railroad engines winston_40@hotmail.com |
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