After being part of a mildly successful rail fan weekend, I’ve come up with a few questions for those who’ve done more of these.

1. What seems to be the core group that comes back?
This particular event was only in its second year, however despite new equipment and other aspects that were done differently from last year, it seemed to be same crowd from the year before. Which leads to my next question….

2. Does marketing help?
If we’re going to get the same people over again, then does it do any good to spend scads of dollars on marketing?

3. What do you offer?
Like I previously said, there was new equipment, new photo locations and other aspects of the program had been changed and the crowd actually thinned. So should the focus be more about getting those this year only shots? Or do we shift it to a more social occasion? ( I say this mostly because I saw plenty of people with their hands in their pockets with no camera bad in sight. Obviously they either aren’t there for the pictures or they are disappointed enough with the offering that they didn’t bother to take the camera off the train)

4. How much do you charge?
Tickets for the event in question were about 4 times the regular rate for a train ride. However for that you went from the standard 2 hour trip to an 10 hour experience, consisting of yard switching photo ops, train pacing, 2 different consist to ride at 2 different times, 2 meals, and plenty of runbys.

I am curious to know what others out there know and have learned. I am also eager to know how some of the private photo charters at Strasburg work that produce such great results. This is only the second year for this type of event, and the learning is only starting for us.

Serve beer. ;)

The organizers of some of these charters read this board and maybe they can chime in. But until then, I can give you some general thoughts as a participant.

It seems the market for events breaks into two categories, with not much in-between: train festivals or open houses or other simple events that are maketed publically and widely for the general railfan audience and premium photo charters at high-sticker prices.

The Strasburg and EBT-style charters are not organized by the railroad and then marketed to the railfan community as a public event--they are organized privately and word of them is circulated through the organizers' network. It's not a big secret-- anyone who would like to get on the mailing list can post their interest here and I'm sure they would be added to the contact list for future events by organizers who read this board. But doing it this way does keep the advance buzz to a minimum and helps ensure a good relaxed day of unobstructed photo lines and no craziness with non-participant chasers.

This means the organizer bears the marketing labor and the financial risk and the railroad is assured that they will not have to run the trip at breakeven or a loss.

Second, the trips are expensive. Instead of four time the ordinary fare, think 40 times--on the order of several hundred dollars per day. It's a premium price for a premium service.

This allows the organizer to reduce his marketing effort (he only needs 20 or 30 folks to sign up instead of 100 or more) and it reduces the number of people the railroad staff will have under foot all day climbing on and off the equipment and trampling their neighbors fields (with permission of course).

To be blunt, it also tends to winnow the crowd to a self-selected group of people who know how to behave safely around the equipment and who will be polite and appreciative to their hosts, leaving good feelings behind. Newcomers are welcome--I am pretty new to these charters myself--but the cadre of old hands sets the example and the good peer pressure for the overall event.

To command that kind of price the equipment and the trips are pretty special. The power is usually back-dated before the charter, up to and including repainting and moving the jewelry around--or even having replica jewelry remade from scratch. The freight cars are hand-selected by the road and the organizer. Great throught goes into the locations and the itinerary and props like historic autos, tractors, etc. Organizers like Carl Franz and Jim Gunning do extensive brush-clearing beforehand. Catering is carefully thought through.

There are a few operations that seem to have found a very narrow niche in between the two extremes of the public open house and the private premium charter, and you might want to reach out to them to learn how they do it. One is Monticello Railway Museum--

http://www.prairienet.org/mrm/phototrain.html

--and the other is Mountain State and their railfan weekend at Cass-- see

http://www.msrlha.org/railfan.htm

This is intersting, prior to this, my only real exprince with photo charters was the MSR&LHA weekend. The complaints were always the same: to many people, same old equipment, and the same old locations. The weekend that I was just a part of sought to address just those issues.
Now I am throwing in the other aspect since I was working I missed most of this part. As a car host on the MSR&LHA events I got to see people who never got off the train, those who just stood there and talked. People who knew each other 30 years ago, people who were apart of things along time ago, meeting the newer generation, etc. etc.

So hears my next question, are the vocal camera operators who complain about the lack of varity in equipment, count the rivits, and want something totally different every year, are these just the people you hear, and not the ones that pay the bills?
Are the hard core return crowds the ones who come looking for a social event?

First off....what organization are you with. You mentioned your recent event but not the railroad!!!???

I have done a couple of steam charters in the past, and Erik's comments are pretty much right on the money.

There seem to be mass events done by the railroads, and these are great for the quasi-fans that are not particular so much about authenticity. The more hard-core guys want to pay more, and get more, instead of wasting their travel money and time on a not so interesting hodge-podge of trains.

If you can re-create something that was actually done during the steam era or diesel era whichever the case may be, that was representative of that motive power with lettering, etc, thats usually a better draw.

The large crowded events usually means bad locations that have to accomodate the big crowds so photo lines are set-up on the wrong side of the tracks to get the people in, and disregard the sun and other things that would make a good shot. Thats another reason the smaller groups work better. You can get into better locations, and take less time getting on and off the track with fewer bodies.

If I were running a tourist outfit and trying to do a railfan weekend, I would consider either doing two weekends, or making a longer weekend and split up the trips. By that I mean, I would do one weekend for the quasi-fans, that are not so particular. Make this for the masses, so that all can afford to do the trips. Do less runbys, but still everyone gets to do some nice shots for a reasonable rate. This way everyone gets the experience.

On the second weekend, or extended days(weekdays work for some of the hardcore fans) do premium trips for lesser numbers of fans. Do more runbys, better spots, and perhaps offer something special as for motive power or lettering of same.

Another idea here is to get a guy on board that has experience at doing these sort of things, like John Craft, or Jim Gunning for example.

One aspect of all this that has to be a concern is liability. I don't want to be a wet blanket, but when I did a pair of charters in 1993, I set-up a corporation to cover my butt, which of course cost money to do. If you can work the trips through your organization, rather than having the sponsoring person be the sponsor it is a big relief for the individual doing the charter. In the past individuals have done these charters, and they have essentially taken on the risk. Some have no families to worry about, and thus had nothing to lose. Others like myself would be less willing to risk it all on the chance some clown decides to sue me if he falls off the coach steps and into a ditch trackside and brakes a leg!!!

In today's world of few decent mainline steam trains to photograph, the idea of these charters is a good way for fans to stay interested in the hobby and a potential source of revenue for some of the organizations that have steam engines or other interesting motive power. Sometimes the groups don't make a lot of money off these, but they serve to add some recognition(cheap advertising), and do get their locomotives some work.

A lot of the scenario is predicated on what there is to work with from the standpoint of the line the trains run on, and the equipment that can be assembled to make it look good. Sometimes the train consist can be really good, but fans won't come see it unless the tender lettering is authentic to the origins of the engine, when it was in regular service.

Hope this helps a little. Its a narrow field of guys who would do these trips, and a shrinking one of greyhairs mostly. However, with some more possible trips, perhaps a younger group will get interested, since its about the only way to see first-hand what the steam days were really like.

Greg Scholl

http://www.gregschollvideo.com

I think Eric put it best here. You can do an expensive special charter, or a cheaper public event.

SCRM hasn't done a railfan weekend in about five years -- the FRA requiring brakes to be in date killed them by taking all our freight cars out of service. The ones we did were very poorly attended. Looking back, I understand why -- they were marketed like a public event but run like a hardcore railfan event. The public wasn't that interested in an overpriced marathon trip and the fans were unhappy with the daisy-pickers being there to ruin sound tracks and photos. We've since shifted to a "Member's Day" type event, which I'm hoping will eventually evolve into a chance to play with the more unusual stuff as we get equipment restored and certified (if anyone's interested, our Member's Day is always the fourth Saturday in October).

Spencer has managed to hit a good combination with their Rail Days. I'm glad I don't have to organize that, though, because it's a massive event. Much bigger than I'd want to get into at our little railroad. I also think it suffers a bit from the fact that none of the trains go anywhere. But then, that's been Spencer's biggest problem since the museum was started. If only we could move that facility to Rockton, or move the Rockton & Rion to Spencer... oh, well...

As Erik mentioned, it tends to divide into two groups. One is the hard-core photographers who will only show up for something very close to realistic and are willing to do (and pay) what it takes to get the best possible photos/sound of the event. The problem for organizers is that group is small and aging.

After that, the mass market takes over. Something more like the Mountain State group at Cass. I am going this year to record the whistle blow and spend the weekend with some good friends. I have attended the MSRLHA weekends many times in past years. I enjoy myself, but I know what I'm getting when I go. Good photo opportunities there are unlikely due to a very large group and no real focus on photography. I know this when I go and am not disappointed when the photos are mediocre.

If there is any in-between, it is the museums and a few individuals that tend to operate for profit.



Marketing is always necessary. However in the case of the hard-core photo charters, e-mail is the usual method of advertising. A few phone calls will reach those holdouts from the computer age.

Occasionally advertising in the national magazines is done. The problem this engenders is the unwanted presence of unpaid "guests" who saw the ad in the magazine.



Take a look at the masthead photo on this website's home page. It is of Canadian National 2-6-0 No. 89 running during a photo freight on the Strasburg. John Craft had the imagination and desire to see this loco restored to it's in-service appearance. He and Linn Moedinger worked to do as close a restoration as reasonable time and money would allow. The 40 or so photograpers who paid to have the loco restored and then photograph it, got up before dawn to be standing in the right place to capture that image. All the ingredients for a successful photo freight are summed up in that one shot: steam, realistic train that looks "in-service", good lighting, a small well controlled photo line. Did I mention GOOD LIGHTING!!!!!

You have to plan the event from a photographers perspective. Photo freights are not a train ride. They may have that too, but the photos/sound come first.



Whatever it takes. I have always approached this as a non-profit deal. I expect to recover my expenses, but not make any money on it. The railroad/museum needs to recover their expenses and make a profit. We have always negotiated everything, but the approach has always been, tell us what it will cost. Then we divide the cost by the number of participants needed for a fair price. If the price is too high, either we don't run or make some modifications to lower costs.

The price for the Mountain State weekend at Cass this year is $150 for the three days. For a good photo freight today, that price would be low for just one day. Many people that attend events like the Railfan Weekend at Cass are not interested enough in good photography to pay the higher cost of a hard-core photo charter.

For a ballpark, figure $250 a head per full day. At one extreme, I have seen some trips with overly large groups charge $80 or so. At the other end, one very expensive trip cost $500 for a very long but worthwhile day.



Yes and no. Are some photographers demanding? Yes, I'm one of them. I am willing to pay to see and phot a close approximation of an in service train. Would I pay a smaller amount to do the same with the "standard" tourist equipment? No way!

If you are using the Mountain state trips as a measuring stick, then you probably did hear a lot of complaints from the photographers there. Those trips could be improved photographically with a little planning. However, you are correct that many folks on such a trip are just not interested in photos beyond a few snapshots. They are there for the social event. Even the hard-core photo charters are really good social events and I always enjoy that part of it.

Jim Gunning

You've gotten some great answers here, so I'll only repeat one point: a railfan weekend and a photo special bear no resemblence.

Ohio Central's TrainFest or CSRM's RailFair are the ultimate "railfan weekends," but you couldn't get the type of photos that we try for on a photo special. Which is a good thing - that's not why most railfan weekends are planned. (Monticello is an excellent exception to that statement.)


And your use of the phrase "hard-core" is very different from Greg's. Our version of "hard-core" is that exacting photographer Jim described - he knows what he wants, and he's willing to pay for it. You will not make a large profit catering to him (ask Linn ;), but then if you were interested in large profits you wouldn't be involved with trains.

JAC

Ben, re-reading all this good feedback I think your outfit might want to think in terms of three kinds of events, each with a different target market, price point, and risk/reward profile:

1. festivals for the general public, especially parents and kids, with really short shuttle rides, and also entertainment, singers, face painting, balloon blowers, Thomas toys for sale, and so on. Think Day Out With Thomas as the template, but a homegrown version without actually getting involved in the replica Thomas craziness at first. Tie it in with your host town's big anniversary, whatever it is, "Founders Day" or "Canal Day" or "Logging Days" or "Kumquat Days" whatever they celebrate.

2. Members' Day-type events for the general railfan, with equipment displays, shop tours, guest speakers, book signings, and a special train with maybe one photo runby--think IRM or Spencer's Rail Days, Member Days, etc.

3. Photo charters--to start small, talk to Monticello and learn how they organize and market theirs. You might need to establish a track record with an event you organize yourself before you'll be able to interest a charter operator. If you go this route think from the photographer's perspective, as explained above by Greg, Jim and John. Whether there will ever be a much of a market for this on your operation depeands heavily on the specifics of your location and how and what kind of accurate-appearing train you can put together.

Not wanting to label fans per se, but to further the discussion of hard-core
fans I would only say that in the case of the Hard-Core charters, most sponsors will tell you that it sometimes takes some of the non-hardcore fans to put them over the top for ticket sales.
I know in 1988 when we did our L&N 152 charter we sold some rider tickets to guys with spouses and kids so they could ride along. Every dollar helps. In 1993 when we did charters in Chama I had one family shell-out $2400(4 tickets of $600 each for 2 days). I never heard of them, nor ever again for that matter, but it allowed us to pay for another loco on one trip, so every customer was welcomed.
The key is to find out what is unique about your operation, or what you can do to attract different levels of fans. I think if you had a 2-3 day event and some events within that span that catered to the hard-core in addition to the others, that you would benefit with a lot of cross-over tickets. Some of the hard-core would maybe stay for part of the other stuff justifying it as more opportunities, and a hedge against bad weather on their trip. Some of the non-hardcore may book the hard core trip to see what its all about since they are there anyway. You have to get creative and try a few things. Not all will work, but through trial and error it will work. I still don't know what group Ben True was referring to with his last railfan weekend?
Greg Scholl

Another thing I will pass along is that you can offer some incentives as well, to attract folks. For example, price the trips individually, then have a discounted package price, or other options. If you have gift shop sales, offer a 10-20% disount on items at the gift shop, for just the weekend, or a coupon good for 30-90 days after the event. I did something like this on my trips, and offered 25% off my videos to riders on my charters. I had one guy spend over $1,000 one time, and he figured he basically paid for his ticket with the savings. Again get creative!
Food is another consideration. We usually throw in lunch, one time it was a sit-down in historic Carlisle, Ky(the chasers were dumbfounded!!!), and the other times it was box lunches. You can figure that into the cost of tickets, or offer them as an additional fee to whomever wants them.
You can have banquets and all sorts of other special things, but most of the hard-core will likely not really care about that. Give them sunup to sundown photo opportunities with well planned and executed runbys, and they are happy. I recently converted my Union Pacific Steam Vol One video to DVD, and in watching it was struck by the fact that in 1987 and 1988, the UP did Cheyenne to Laramie trips with 3985 where we did 12 runbys per trip. Those were the days!!! Give your photo riders 15-30 runby opportunities and they will be happy.
Greg Scholl

[quote="Greg Scholl"]Another thing I will pass along is that you can offer some incentives as well, to attract folks.

Not to mention tie ins with local motels and restaurants for discounted accomodations for attendees - heavily discounted if it is off season and the places would be almost empty otherwise.

dave

Remember that in many cases what your "insiders" (officials, directors, employees, and even members) experience regularly maybe just what "outsider" railfans will pay good money to see. Of course, what really brings in the money may be even more work than a regular day!
Be careful of letting management and employees design the affair. In some cases, a regular trolley car operator's idea of the ideal fan trip is a non-stop, doors closed run from one end of the line to the other. This type of thinking sometimes also arises in the rail museum industry. While the general public may like such an idea, the railfans may not.