From Rob Dickinson's site. Not sure of the date of this posting, perhaps someone else knows. Sorry if it is out of date or previously posted here.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/javatour/t ... basale.htm

Bob,

That story dates from September 2004. Not sure how many (if any) of the locomotives have been sold thus far.

And while "Dave" keeps mentioning that people should get off the stick and do something with these engines, the best thoughts I've read on the matter is that there is no legal way to bring them into the US. This isn't an import duty issue, where the US origin of the locomotives would prevail, it's a Trading with the Enemy Act issue, and routing the goods through a third nation ain't going to cut it. A similar situation exists with Cuban cigars, which are readily available in Canada, but illegal to bring across the border into the US.

Speaking of Canada, It would be nice if some of these engines migrated up there for preservation. Then they'd still be around when our policy towards Cuba finally changes.

Well, I can understand the issue with the cigars, because wherever you import them from, they're still Cuban-made. It shouldn't necessarily follow that the same would apply to importing American-made locomotives from Spain just because they happened to spend a few decades working in Cuba. What if they were substantially rebuilt in another country between leaving Cuba and touching these shores? A contract restoration in say Britain or Poland for example?

I cross-referenced the list of locomotives with images on Rob Dickinson's Zafra CD-ROM (http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/javatour/books/zafra.htm), there's some nice-looking stuff available down there. Can't speak for how any of it looks on the inside though!

Richard Jenkins

I am not an attorney nor do I claim to have any expertise in import / export law. That being understood, I had been given to understand that the purchase was actually from a steam preservation society in Spain. I am not a principal or agent in this matter, would be very grateful for somebody with that specialized knowledge to jump in here and deal with the specifics.

If a Spanish corporation owns exportable American made assets in Cuba, can they be purchased and repatriated legally by US interests?

Dave

From the US Treasury Departmant Office of Foreign Assets Control:

IMPORTING CUBAN-ORIGIN GOODS OR SERVICES - Goods or
services of Cuban origin may not be imported into the United States either
directly or through third countries, such as Canada or Mexico. The only
exceptions are publications, artwork, or other informational materials.

TRANSACTIONS INVOLVING PROPERTY IN WHICH CUBA OR A
CUBAN NATIONAL HAS AN INTEREST - In addition to the prohibitions
on exports to and imports from Cuba, the Regulations prohibit any
person subject to U.S. jurisdiction from dealing in any property in which
Cuba or a Cuban national has an interest. Under the Regulations,
“propertyâ€

Well, Richard,

if you have a good lawyer who's willing to make that argument at your trial, and you don't mind the possibility of spending a few decades as a tenant of a Federally-managed condo (I hear the spartan, industrial "loft" look is in), take a crack at it.

JAC

If I read this correctly the exceptions are publications and artwork.

An argument could be made that these antique locomotives are now "works of art." And I'm sure there are several railroad "museums" that would like to have them on display.

I fear a lot of these locos are pretty worn out, but back in 2003 when I visited Cuba, the 2 Mal Tiempo 30" gauge locos were operable & in excellent condition.

An argument could also be made that museum artifacts used to interpret history could be informational materials - but wouldn't it be great to have some sympathetic politician specifically legislate US made industrial artifacts into the act? Solve a lot of what-if stuff. Perhaps a senator from Colorado might be persuaded to intervene since a couple 2-8-0's could do some good to a state owned property there now.

dave

What is funny about the trade laws with Cuba is that Govt only obeys them as they see fit. Example if anyone has watched Farenheit 911 there is a photo in that movie where President Bush and Saudi Prince Bandar are smoking CUBAN COHIBA cigars at the White House.

So in essence there is a way to get these steamers back to the US. Does anybody involved with preservation know George W. or the Saudi Royal Family personally? If so maybe they could get the engines back.

Gotta love it when Govt officials can smoke Cuban cigars, yet a few who want to preserve anitque relics that symbolize a bygone era of America's industrial past aren't allowed to bring some steam locomotives into the country. Oh well, preservation continues with or without these engines and it looks like it's going to be without them.

Well, these engines aren't of Cuban origin, strictly speaking, so I think a good argument could be made that the first part doesn't apply here. Pretty hard to get around the second part though. But supposing they were smuggled over and the government seizes them and auctions them off? They'd be fair game then, right? ;-)

Richard Jenkins

Well, the bad news is I can't afford a lawyer that good. On the other hand, I can't afford a steam locomotive either, so I guess the point is moot.

Richard Jenkins

Yo, man I gotta at least give THIS guy credit for using his imagination!

Unfortunately, if (just to create an example) I were to buy all these narrow-gauge locos, and get them confiscated, and the locos auctioned off for $1 each (hell, let's give one to the Georgetown Loop while we're at it), I'm still out whatever I spent to get those locos. Let me pass my engineer's cap for my expenditure.......

Unfortunately, I couls just see some scrap merchants buying them up to ship to the blast furnaces in China.....

Strictly in theory, there's yet another argument to be made for waiving restrictions against Cuban repatriation. I can assume that most, if now every last one, of these locos were originally either imported by or purchased for use by AMERICAN companies for use on behalf of sugar mills/companies under American control. Castro and his fellow Marxists seized these assets for state control, without the willing consent of the original owners. Therefore, can we rightfully consider these assets to be of Cuban origin, even after 50+ years under Marxist control?

I can see all sides of the interpretation, and as much as I consider current American policy towards Cuba to be back-assward, I still have to stroke my chin thoughtfully. I do sincerely believe a proper argument FOR repatriation CAN be made, but this is a murky gray area of the worst kind--the kind where we could ask ten State Department officials about the situation, get twenty different answers, and find all of them wrong or unenforceable. If someone wants to be bull-headed enough to pursue this avenue, more power to them, but get enough in writing in advance, and be willing to let your assets and/or money sit in escrow for ten years or so.

The issue isn't where the engines came from, or who owned them, or even who owns them now. The issue is where the money goes. If it goes to the Castro government, it ain't going to happen. And, while I'm not a lawyer, don't personally know the President, and don't know any Saudis (although I'd like to have some quality time with Bin Laden, but I digress) I do know that there's an awful lot of Cuban exiles in Florida, they haven't forgiven Castro yet, the President's brother is gonvener of Florida, and he will need those people if he decides to run for president himself some day.

Let's take this discussion up in another four years.