We're planning the roof replacement for the D&RGW 0579 caboose's restoration during a Friends of the C&TS work session this summer.

The original roof on these cars was "painted canvas". Previously a material called "Indicryl" had been used on the C&TS (e.g. Caboose 0503), which was described by the manufacturer as a "Self Valcanizing rubber roofing compound" with excellent results. This car will need to be exposed to a harsh climate year round (at an altitude of 7,000').

Unfortunately Indicryl is no longer available. Does anyone know of a replacement ?

I am also interested in what other restoration projects have used. I have noted PRR 980016 as restored by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS had a "rubber roof" installed which was donated by Carlise Syntech Systems. Does anyone know anything about that material or other synthetic treatments ?

http://members.home.net/drgw0579/579.html
drgw0579@home.net

One material we have used at RR Museum of New England is a "melt-down" roll roofing, made by a number of manufacturers. It is a common commercial product. A thin version of the stuff-- about 1/8 inch or so-- approximates the look of canvas. We did a coach roof with it about 1981, and it has held up quite well. It does need to be re-coated ("glopped" as we say), because the UV exposure takes a toll--- that might be a consideration at CATS' elevations. It is very important that you do not let a roofing supplier / contractor talk you into using an underlayment between the car roof and the melt-down material, as ripples can develop. When you melt this stuff down, IT IS PERMANENT. Be sure the roof is repaired first.

The rubber roofing is also very good. Any places it is fastened with roofing nails looks like '50s tuck-n'-roll auto upholstery, though.

hpincus@mindspring.com

Original practise was to use canvas duck, usually #6 or #8--in some cases as light as #10, stretched tight, tacked around the edges at about 3/4-1" intervals, and then painted with 1-3 coats of raw linseed mixed with the desired color (usually lampblack). Boiled linseed oil is not recommeded. It isn't uncommon to have to install a new tacking strip along the eaves when applying new canvas. This is a bit of simplification.

Many RR museums, particulary the trolley museums, today use acrylic porch and floor latex paint in place of the linseed oil. Some of these installations have lasted a long time, although most trolley museums keep their restored cars indoors. Frank Sirinek at IRM, who has applied a fair number of canvas roofs, maintains that linseed oil actually rots the canvas and advocates using a canvas preservative paint before applying either linseed or latex. Get in touch with Union for further information.

I've seen the rubber stuff you talk about, and it's big drawback is that if it starts breaking down, the simple recoating possible with linseed and latex (i.e. another coat of paint) won't necessarily work. The manufacturer you speak of is the third or fourth I've heard of over the years. Perhaps checking with a ship chandler might come up with a current supplier. Also try looking in the Thomas Register under Products and Services->Rubberized Coatings (if "Rubber Coatings" isn't a heading, you may have to look under Coatings and find one who advertises this kind).

Canvas roofs are a lot of work and require a lot of attention to keep them in good shape. I've seen some which have lasted for 20 years or more of regular use, when given adequate care (I mean operating company here, not museum use, which is "occasional"). If your looking for something to put on and then "forget about" don't use canvas. If you do, and the company used black pigment, this is the most ultraviolet resistant "color", which is important to the durability of the "paint". If this is an "emergency measure" to protect the caboose from the elements pending indoor storage, roofing shingles are the most weather (sun and water) resistant. These can be applied somewhat discreetly but will also need periodic checking for leaks.

I'm surprised to hear your caboose uses canvas because blowing cinders from the stack wear right through it, sort of like constantly rubbing it with sandpaper. On the other hand, this is problem is much more prevalent with passenger cars, with their rounded roof ends, higher speeds, and closer proximity to the locomotive.

You must make the surface of the deck nice and smooth without projections before you apply canvas or any membrane. Applying a layer of plywood over the T&G may be desireable. Use the heaviest canvas you can find. If the color isn't critical, lighter is definitely better.

The last patch job I did on a canvas roof was under and overcoated with a latex based roof coating from Home Depot. Nothing exotic about it. I recall a product in CO from Eagle or someplace called "SnoKote" or something similar that was available in black or white, mixing them to produce a nice gray is easy.

For low maintenence seamless rubber roofing glued down and edged with a strip of aluminum or similar will last a long time. Building roofs made of this stuff are guaranteed for 25 years. If the caboose isn't going to torque and tear across the roof it is a great choice. Patches can be applied with glue and strips of roofing if any holes happen.

Best of luck with this interesting project.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

If you are looking for a sythetic replacement, you might look for a product called Dex-o-tex. It's fairly simple to apply, you paint down a tack coat of the stuff, imbed a fiber scrim into it, then apply two to three additional coats over the scrim. I've used it for decks on residences over living spaces(i.e, it's fine for a walking surface, it has 80% elongation for movement, and is warranteed for 40 years if applied by a liscenced applicator.

Personally, I don't care for the rubber membranes made by carslile, goodyear, firestone etc as I've had too much experience with clients wanting them replaced due to leaks. We do not use them in our work.

The modified bitumen (torch down built up roof) is fairly simple to apply, and seems to hold up pretty good, but the appearance might be off, the top layer needs to have a granular surface for UV protection.

Dave's comments about substrate are right on the money. Consider using a bond-breaker along any cracks prone to movement. This can be as simple as 1" masking tape centered on the crack. 80% of nothing is still nothing, an inch of tape and that 80% will allow a movement of just over 3/4".


rudd@cogdellmendrala.com

Don't be to quick to avoid using canvas. We have redone two pieces of equipment using close (we think) to traditional methods. One was a 40ft superintendents car and the other a caboose. We used a mixture of "Carter White Lead in Oil" which comes in a 26lb pail. This was mixed with "boiled linseed oil". Mixture was about 8lbs of white to 2.5 quarts of the linseed oil. Yuo need a hard to stir soupy mixture. You than add some turpentine to get it "brushable" or "rollable". Canvas was a heavy white duck No 10. When the canvas was applied and dried it was given 3 coats of ALKYD (oil base) paint. The roofs have both stood up extremly well. over 10 years in the case of the business car and are repainted every 1 to 2 years. While labour intensive it looks good. Booth roofs were repainted this winter and show no sign of canvas deterioriation. One problem though. We got the White Lead from a company named Carter Chemical in Montreal Que. (house in the old Delormier shop bldg of the CPR) This company was destroyed in a fire about two years ago and we now need another source of white lead in oil. If anyone needs copy of our roofing procedures please contact me offline.

paul.bown@sympatico.ca

> Don't be to quick to avoid using canvas.

I would tend to agree. At IRM we have always roofed cars that originally had canvas roofs with canvas (except in a few cases where we needed a quick fix, in which case we used the old standby of tarpaper). Canvas is really quite resilient; as far as we can tell, the interurbans in the Chicago area replaced the canvas on their cars about once every 10 years - and that was with the cars stored outside all the time.

We generally use canvas paint to finish the roof. Although it isn't available in very many colors, it's specifically made for this job and is very effective. One of the most important things you need to do before laying canvas is make sure the wooden roof is absolutely obstacle-free. Even small protrusions will, over time, chafe against and cut holes in the canvas. For a short time IRM experimented with putting a sheet of fiberglass mat under the canvas to help eliminate chafing, but the results were inconclusive.

The Spencer Chapter of the NRHS has a wooden Clinchfield caboose here at the Museum. When they restored it a few years ago they applied new canvas to the roof and applied Elasti-Gard roof coating to the canvas. The product is made by Randustrial. The car is stored indoors and only sees occasional use. The roof looks great. I have used the product to treat the older canvas on our Edwards car and it looks like it will do the job. It is made to coat metal roofs, but I have spoken with company reps that are comfrotable with the way we are using the product.

shaymech@hotmail.com

> Don't be to quick to avoid using canvas.... The roofs have both
> stood up extremly well.

Another important point is that the canvas must be stretched tight in both directions before you tack it down, so there aren't any creases or bulges if you can avoid it. Compound curves are going to be a problem, but a standard caboose roof should be easy. I've heard stories of using a Volkswagen Beetle as a tensioning device somehow, but tieplates hung every foot or two are more practical and should be sufficient. And put in new tack molding.

> We're planning the roof replacement for the
> D&RGW 0579 caboose's restoration during
> a Friends of the C&TS work session this
> summer.

> The original roof on these cars was
> "painted canvas". Previously a
> material called "Indicryl" had
> been used on the C&TS (e.g. Caboose
> 0503), which was described by the
> manufacturer as a "Self Valcanizing
> rubber roofing compound" with excellent
> results. This car will need to be exposed to
> a harsh climate year round (at an altitude
> of 7,000').

> Unfortunately Indicryl is no longer
> available. Does anyone know of a replacement
> ?

> I am also interested in what other
> restoration projects have used. I have noted
> PRR 980016 as restored by the Harrisburg
> Chapter of the NRHS had a "rubber
> roof" installed which was donated by
> Carlise Syntech Systems. Does anyone know
> anything about that material or other
> synthetic treatments ?

Bill,
The Samuel Spencer Chapter owns a woodside Clinchfield Caboose. The roof was canvas and we went to Austin Canvas Co. in Charlotte to sew us the canvas and we coated it a black elastomeric coating. For the holes in the roof for the roofwalk we cut rubber gaskets to keep them from leaking. It stays in the roundhouse at the NCTM but it has been out in the rain for events and has not leaked. Water does run down the side of the stove pipe.

phess@webkorner.com

> The Spencer Chapter of the NRHS has a wooden
> Clinchfield caboose here at the Museum. When
> they restored it a few years ago they
> applied new canvas to the roof and applied
> Elasti-Gard roof coating to the canvas. The
> product is made by Randustrial. The car is
> stored indoors and only sees occasional use.
> The roof looks great. I have used the
> product to treat the older canvas on our
> Edwards car and it looks like it will do the
> job. It is made to coat metal roofs, but I
> have spoken with company reps that are
> comfrotable with the way we are using the
> product.

Sorry John, I didn't read all the post, so we duplicated our story.

phess@webkorner.com

> We're planning the roof replacement for the
> D&RGW 0579 caboose's restoration during
> a Friends of the C&TS work session this
> summer.

> The original roof on these cars was
> "painted canvas". Previously a
> material called "Indicryl" had
> been used on the C&TS (e.g. Caboose
> 0503), which was described by the
> manufacturer as a "Self Valcanizing
> rubber roofing compound" with excellent
> results. This car will need to be exposed to
> a harsh climate year round (at an altitude
> of 7,000').

> Unfortunately Indicryl is no longer
> available. Does anyone know of a replacement
> ?

> I am also interested in what other
> restoration projects have used. I have noted
> PRR 980016 as restored by the Harrisburg
> Chapter of the NRHS had a "rubber
> roof" installed which was donated by
> Carlise Syntech Systems. Does anyone know
> anything about that material or other
> synthetic treatments ?

To add another option to the list of alternative coatings over a traditional canvas roof, for the Port of Los Angeles replica interurban cars we are borrowing an idea from the Seattle Waterfront Trolley and using an elastomeric roofing compund similar to Parker Paint 9710. It provides a very durable surface, and can be tinted in various colors. During application of the canvas, an attempt is made to coat both the underside and the top side of the canvas with the elastomeric.

The elastomeric provides an extremely thick covering on the canvas. This technique has apparently been used successfully by Seattle Trolley on top of their canvas roofs for many years now, and we'll see how it holds up in the higher UV of Southern California.

Railway Preservation Resources
jsmatlak@earthlink.net

> Another important point is that the canvas
> must be stretched tight in both directions
> before you tack it down, so there aren't any
> creases or bulges if you can avoid it.
> Compound curves are going to be a problem,
> but a standard caboose roof should be easy.

It should be pulled firm in its longest direction (usually lengthwise) by wrapping the overhanging ends of the canvas in 4x4s one or two turns and using a cable hoist or block and tackle for tensioning, with the other end hooked under the end sill of the car. "Firm" is good enough--don't over do it. It also helps to pull down hard with one hand while the other sets the tacks. Lateral wrinkles which result on compound curves are eliminated by dividing the wrinkles into as many numerous small ones as you can over the widest possible area and then separating them from each other with tacks (along the roof edges--those away from the edges may need extra hot water treatments and no tacks). Next wet them with warm or hot water to shrink the canvas slightly (the hotter the water, the more shrinkage it causes, just like a pair of Levis 501s). Don't apply paint until the water has completely dried out. Latex paint, bieng water based, also shrinks the canvas slightly, another reason not to over do the pre-tensioning.

> I've heard stories of using a Volkswagen
> Beetle as a tensioning device somehow, but
> tieplates hung every foot or two are more
> practical and should be sufficient. And put
> in new tack molding.

I know all about the Volkswagen; it's a true story (almost 30 years old) and not another urban legend (it was a red VW beetle). While the idea of using the car as the anchor wasn't a bad idea, the tensioning apparatus was thightened too much, almost lifting one end of it off the ground. Boiled linseed oil was painted on the canvas. Because of over tensioning and the boiled linseed, the canvas on the curved ends of the railroad style clerestory roof failed prematurely.

The next roof was done with far less pre-tensioning and raw linseed (almost 20 years ago), and it shows no signs of decay.

Always use non-treated canvas.

I knew we had done the roof of our business car quite a while back but it has been 19 years. The canvas shows no real signs of deterioration and I was up inspecting it last week. We have been quite agressive about repainting though. In order to stretch the canva properly we fabricated a clamp like device, out of wood, to hold the free end of a "run" of canvas. The clamp was about 4ft wide. We used a come-along (a chain block or other pulling device would suffice)plus a sufficient length of rope to attach the clamp from the pulling device to a stationary anchor. (this was a GE 70T for at least part of the operation). We modified several vice grips by welding 1" by 4" by 1/8' thick plates to the jaws. With these we were able to pull (stretch) the canvas to the sides. It is really tough to over stretch with this method and remember the canvas was still wet with the white lead and boiled linseed oil mixture. We suffered no tears as the canvas dried. The car spends most of its time outside and this is in Ottawa Canada where the seasonal changes are extreme. We will probably have to redo the roof in the next five years but mainly due to the fact that the LetterBoard will need replacement. As well it is time to teach the new members how do do a canvas roof. Current problem though is does anyone know of a source of white lead in oil.

paul.bown@sympatico.ca