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E.B.T.
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Author:  Alan Levy [ Thu Apr 26, 2001 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  E.B.T.
It's been along time since I've heard anything about the E.B.T. restoration efforts. I understand some money was cut loose to stabilize structures etc.

What about efforts to restore the railroad?

What's the general opinion out there? Does anyone think this will ever happen?

-Alan

AlanL759@aol.com
Author:  David M. Wilkins [ Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: E.B.T.
Something needs to Happen!

It is ashame that something couldn't be worked out with the NPS. While what I am about to say isn't popular, think of all the money the NPS sunk into Steamtown, and how that could have benefited EBT.


wilkidm@wku.edu
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: E.B.T.
First to address the question "What's up with the EBT" and then to address the questions and arguments behind the question:

The EBT as we speak is preparing for the opening of its 41st season in June. Some tie replacement and trackwork has been done over the winter and there has been some brush clearing along the line. No renovation or stabilization work of real note has happened in the Rockhill Furnace shops in recent years. Funding under the TEA-21 program to work on the shops buildings two years ago did not come to pass--more on that in a minute.

So for the currently operating portion of the EBT it's pretty much steady as she goes--no major changes for the worse or better.

On the north end of the EBT at Mt. Union there are big doings. Joe Kovalcheck has leased the north end of the RR, including the Mt. Union engine house, to a new shortline operator, Mt. Union Connecting Railroad. The Mt. Union Connecting has secured economic development grants and is rehaibilitating the dual-gauge trackage to serve an industrial park south of Mt. Union. The Mt. Union enginehouse has been refurbished and repainted, and contractors are actively working on the track even as we speak. Though the rehabilitation covers only the standard gauge track, the lease agreement calls for leaving all the third rail and n.g. special work in place. Mt. Union will get its locomtoive and go in to business later this year with luck.

There is also activity on the Shade Gap branch, leased from the EBT by Railways to Yesterday (the Rockhill Trolley Museum). RTY is extending their standard gauge trolley line all the way to the 522 highway crossing. COntractors are setting overhead poles and preparing the ROW as we speak.

Finally, cooperation between the Friends of the EBT and the railroad continues to blossom after a rough patch many years ago. THe Friends have leased the Robertsdale station at the south end of the line as their museum, and have purchased and are restoring the old Post Office directly across the tracks. The friends have also done some stbilization work on the Saltillo station, and are participating more actively (with the railroad's permission and cooperation) in the various annual observances and celebrations.

So that's what's happening. Now to the other part of the question, the "something must be done" part.

Basically, nothing big "can be done" becuase the EBT's private owner, Mr. Kovalchick, and the various state and Federal agencies involved, can't come to terms on a plan of cooperation.

The details are long and complicated, but the nub of the issue seems to be that the State and Federal entities can't really do much to help a for-profit, private company (which the EBT is) unless they can get parts of the property put into the public domain, either by purchase or by transfer to a non-profit foundation or other entity which public agencies CAN support. This kind of a plan was at the heart of the TEA-21 application two years back.

The reason it didn't come to fruition is that the public partners and Mr. Kovalchick can't find a formula that all can agree on. Sources tell me that Mr. Kovalchick felt that the public agencies were constantly moving the goalposts and undervaluing his property. The public agencies feel that Mr. Kovalchick was, when push came to shove, not willing to sacrifice unfettered private ownership and control in exchange for public funds. So it is an impasse. Both sides had and probably still have good intentions, but they do not share enough common ground to do much.

The points I want to make here are:

1. public agencies are not neglecting the EBT. Within the last few years they have brought money and some creative ideas to the table, but not in a way the EBT felt it could accept.

2. The EBT is the private property of Mr. Kovalchick, and his decisions and considerations govern when and on what terms the public will become more involved. So far he has not received the offer he feels is fair and acceptable.

3. When we say in general terms that "something must be done" about the EBT, we always have to remember that in the context of the United States and private property rights, the "something" will have to be something that secure's Mr. Kovalcheck's approval, and meets his terms. So far, his terms have not been terms that public agencies are allowed to meet--the simply cannot basically transfer funds to for-profit corporations. Mr, Kovalcheck might yet sell or donate parts of the property into the public domain, but so far he has not had an offer he feels was acceptable.

As for the EBT in relation to Steamtown, I personally wish this is a subject of discussion we could all lay to rest. The money spent on Steamtown was not a pool of money made available for railroad preservation in general, or even railroad preservation in Pennsylvania--it was an earmark put in, for Scranton and Scranton only, by Scranton's Congressman, Bill McDade. The money went to Scranton or nowhere--it was never avialble to the EBT, or the Nevada Northern, or the Cumbres and Toltec--it was Steamtown or nothing. Bill didn't give a damn about railroad preservation, but he did give a dman about pork barrel politics and economic development in his district. We should be grateful that the money went to railroad presevation at all--that's more or less a happy accident.

So to sum up--

1.there is good news at the EBT itself, though it's small and incremental and the wolf is still at the door.
2.Public agencies and the EBT continue to talk, but they are each prisoners or their own responsbilities, values and perspectives. At the moment that means an impasse.
3. Steamtown (in my opinion) really has nothing to do with the EBT

For me peronally, I respect Mr. Kovalchick, and grateful to him for everything his family has done, and would not challenge his right to maange his property as he sees fit. THat said, I hope someday he and the public agencies can come to terms, so thr public can invest in the irreplacable asset the EBT really is. It will take a lot of work on both sides, but somedya perhaps we'll get there.


http://64.225.91.166/Briefs/November2000/001117.htm
eledbetter@mail.rypn.org
Author:  Rob Davis [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Same Old JoeRe: E.B.T.
Eric,

Your note is right on the money except it was the legendary Joe McDade that got Steamtown funded.

And you are right, put the "waht if's" to bed. There was no Steamtown vs anyone decision. It was all or nothing.

What many people tend to forget, though I remember clearly since I was there, was that Steamtown's collection was THE MOST THREATENED collection in the country at that time and needed the help the most. There was an auction, a small rash of scrappings and a lot of people in Scranton who were ready to throw in the towel, sell what they could and cut up the rest.

When the NPS came in, this was not a collection in the loving care of railbuffs... it was a rotting shadow of what once was under the thumb of some notoriously "suspect" politicians.

EBT is a national treasure, and I do think public dollars should go there, BUT there is no comparison with Steamtown's funding situation.

Rob

> First to address the question "What's
> up with the EBT" and then to address
> the questions and arguments behind the
> question:

> The EBT as we speak is preparing for the
> opening of its 41st season in June. Some tie
> replacement and trackwork has been done over
> the winter and there has been some brush
> clearing along the line. No renovation or
> stabilization work of real note has happened
> in the Rockhill Furnace shops in recent
> years. Funding under the TEA-21 program to
> work on the shops buildings two years ago
> did not come to pass--more on that in a
> minute.

> So for the currently operating portion of
> the EBT it's pretty much steady as she
> goes--no major changes for the worse or
> better.

> On the north end of the EBT at Mt. Union
> there are big doings. Joe Kovalcheck has
> leased the north end of the RR, including
> the Mt. Union engine house, to a new
> shortline operator, Mt. Union Connecting
> Railroad. The Mt. Union Connecting has
> secured economic development grants and is
> rehaibilitating the dual-gauge trackage to
> serve an industrial park south of Mt. Union.
> The Mt. Union enginehouse has been
> refurbished and repainted, and contractors
> are actively working on the track even as we
> speak. Though the rehabilitation covers only
> the standard gauge track, the lease
> agreement calls for leaving all the third
> rail and n.g. special work in place. Mt.
> Union will get its locomtoive and go in to
> business later this year with luck.

> There is also activity on the Shade Gap
> branch, leased from the EBT by Railways to
> Yesterday (the Rockhill Trolley Museum). RTY
> is extending their standard gauge trolley
> line all the way to the 522 highway
> crossing. COntractors are setting overhead
> poles and preparing the ROW as we speak.

> Finally, cooperation between the Friends of
> the EBT and the railroad continues to
> blossom after a rough patch many years ago.
> THe Friends have leased the Robertsdale
> station at the south end of the line as
> their museum, and have purchased and are
> restoring the old Post Office directly
> across the tracks. The friends have also
> done some stbilization work on the Saltillo
> station, and are participating more actively
> (with the railroad's permission and
> cooperation) in the various annual
> observances and celebrations.

> So that's what's happening. Now to the other
> part of the question, the "something
> must be done" part.

> Basically, nothing big "can be
> done" becuase the EBT's private owner,
> Mr. Kovalchick, and the various state and
> Federal agencies involved, can't come to
> terms on a plan of cooperation.

> The details are long and complicated, but
> the nub of the issue seems to be that the
> State and Federal entities can't really do
> much to help a for-profit, private company
> (which the EBT is) unless they can get parts
> of the property put into the public domain,
> either by purchase or by transfer to a
> non-profit foundation or other entity which
> public agencies CAN support. This kind of a
> plan was at the heart of the TEA-21
> application two years back.

> The reason it didn't come to fruition is
> that the public partners and Mr. Kovalchick
> can't find a formula that all can agree on.
> Sources tell me that Mr. Kovalchick felt
> that the public agencies were constantly
> moving the goalposts and undervaluing his
> property. The public agencies feel that Mr.
> Kovalchick was, when push came to shove, not
> willing to sacrifice unfettered private
> ownership and control in exchange for public
> funds. So it is an impasse. Both sides had
> and probably still have good intentions, but
> they do not share enough common ground to do
> much.

> The points I want to make here are:

> 1. public agencies are not neglecting the
> EBT. Within the last few years they have
> brought money and some creative ideas to the
> table, but not in a way the EBT felt it
> could accept.

> 2. The EBT is the private property of Mr.
> Kovalchick, and his decisions and
> considerations govern when and on what terms
> the public will become more involved. So far
> he has not received the offer he feels is
> fair and acceptable.

> 3. When we say in general terms that
> "something must be done" about the
> EBT, we always have to remember that in the
> context of the United States and private
> property rights, the "something"
> will have to be something that secure's Mr.
> Kovalcheck's approval, and meets his terms.
> So far, his terms have not been terms that
> public agencies are allowed to meet--the
> simply cannot basically transfer funds to
> for-profit corporations. Mr, Kovalcheck
> might yet sell or donate parts of the
> property into the public domain, but so far
> he has not had an offer he feels was
> acceptable.

> As for the EBT in relation to Steamtown, I
> personally wish this is a subject of
> discussion we could all lay to rest. The
> money spent on Steamtown was not a pool of
> money made available for railroad
> preservation in general, or even railroad
> preservation in Pennsylvania--it was an
> earmark put in, for Scranton and Scranton
> only, by Scranton's Congressman, Bill
> McDade. The money went to Scranton or
> nowhere--it was never avialble to the EBT,
> or the Nevada Northern, or the Cumbres and
> Toltec--it was Steamtown or nothing. Bill
> didn't give a damn about railroad
> preservation, but he did give a dman about
> pork barrel politics and economic
> development in his district. We should be
> grateful that the money went to railroad
> presevation at all--that's more or less a
> happy accident.

> So to sum up--

> 1.there is good news at the EBT itself,
> though it's small and incremental and the
> wolf is still at the door.
> 2.Public agencies and the EBT continue to
> talk, but they are each prisoners or their
> own responsbilities, values and
> perspectives. At the moment that means an
> impasse.
> 3. Steamtown (in my opinion) really has
> nothing to do with the EBT

> For me peronally, I respect Mr. Kovalchick,
> and grateful to him for everything his
> family has done, and would not challenge his
> right to maange his property as he sees fit.
> THat said, I hope someday he and the public
> agencies can come to terms, so thr public
> can invest in the irreplacable asset the EBT
> really is. It will take a lot of work on
> both sides, but somedya perhaps we'll get
> there.


Inlinebob@aol.com
Author:  R.L.Kennedy [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: E.B.T. Thanks!
Thanks Erik, for a very insightful assessment of the EBT situation, you certainly seem to have a good grasp of it all.

The EBT is indeed an NATIONAL treasure, and I say this as a Canadian who appreciates railroad treasures wherever they are.


http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains
oldtimetrains@rrmail.com
Author:  Ted Miles [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steamtown NHP
> Eric,

>I agree with the information as outlined by you, and am glad to hear that there is some activity at the trolley museum and on the standard gauge.

Many of the historians in the National Park Service did not want anything to do with the Steamtown collection. Please realize that it is usually the Congress that creates new national parks not the NPS. The Steamtown project was pure and simple a Congressman wanting to do good for his district as they all do.

It is interesting to see however that, the collection is not static: a plan to localize the collection to Pennsylvania and the Northeast is under way. A Union Pacific engine has gone back out west, at least one Canadian engine has gone back to Canada and more are likely to follow. Some cars have gone back to New England.A Diesel and some Freight cars with Erie/Lackawanna history
have come from Conrail.

The Lackawanna engine that is in St Louis is also getting rehabed, the proper cab is being installed
and a proper paint scheme being applied.


ted_miles@NPS.gov
Author:  Allen [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: E.B.T. Thanks!
Just a suggestion, If you're REALLY concerned about helping the EBT, or any other railroad under preservation, then you should:
Come out,
Buy a ticket and some souvenirs,
Make a donation (when possible),
and finally,
Tell all your friends & neighbors how GREAT it was.
Yup, putting the money where our mouth is can get expensive inna big hurry, but if we RAILfans don't do it, then who will?
Author:  John Stewart [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steamtown NHP
Ted;

Where is this locomotive now, and which one was "retrieved" by Canadian interests?

> at least one Canadian engine has gone back to Canada and
> more are likely to follow.

Thanks;

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada



john.stewart@crc.ca
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: E.B.T. Thanks!
> Just a suggestion, If you're REALLY
> concerned about helping the EBT, or any
> other railroad under preservation, then you
> should:
> Come out,
> Buy a ticket and some souvenirs,
> Make a donation (when possible),
> and finally,
> Tell all your friends & neighbors how
> GREAT it was.

This is especially true of the EBT. In a nutshell, the fastest way to help is to come out and ride, and/or buy something at the gift shop. The experience never disappoints.

If you would like to be involved in preserving the currently mothballed portions of the line and support raising awareness of the EBT, join the nonprofit Friends of the EBT (not affiliated with the RR: information avaialble at http://www.febt.org. (Disclaimer or advertisement: I'm an armchair member).

Finally, if you'd like to work on the active part of the property the back-door way to do it is to join or volunteer at Railway to Yesterday. You'll be helping a fine trolley museum, preserving the Shade Gap Branch, and from time to time helping out the EBT proper itself.


Friends of the EBT
eledbetter@mail.rypn.org
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steamtown NHP
> Ted;

> Where is this locomotive now, and which one
> was "retrieved" by Canadian
> interests?

The UP engine is 4-4-0 UP/SP 737/216, Baldwin E-21,1887, currently at Portola on loan from Nevada
State Railroad Museum (the engine actually went straight from Steamtown to Portola and has never been to Nevada yet; it's a long sotry I've never head all the detials of).

The Canadian engine is non-streamlined 4-6-4 2816, bought from Steamtown by none other than Canadian Pacific itself and currently being returned to service (with boiler work by Doyle McCormick of Daylight fame) for corporate heritage purposes, a la UP.



eledbetter@mail.rypn.org
Author:  John Stewart [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steamtown NHP
Woops - I thought that Ted was referring to the latest engines, eg, the Jubilee, etc.

I saw parts of 2816 last August - that will be one nice locomotive to see running!

Thanks - John

> The Canadian engine is non-streamlined 4-6-4
> 2816, bought from Steamtown by none other
> than Canadian Pacific itself and currently
> being returned to service (with boiler work
> by Doyle McCormick of Daylight fame) for
> corporate heritage purposes, a la UP.


john.stewart@crc.ca
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steamtown NHP
> Woops - I thought that Ted was referring to
> the latest engines, eg, the Jubilee, etc.

> I saw parts of 2816 last August - that will
> be one nice locomotive to see running!

> Thanks - John

Good point: he might have been. Haven't heard anything about the Jubilee going anywhere yeat but I'm sure its avialable to a good home.

Perhaps Ted will speak ex cathedra.


eledbetter@mail.rypn.org
Author:  Mike Shirk [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  E.B.T. Question/Suggestion
I have a question/suggestion concerning the E.B.T. As a resident of eastern PA and a fellow armchair member of the F.E.B.T, it's not always easy for me to make the 3 hour trip to do volunteer work. Has anyone tried or proposed doing something similar to the Friends of C&TS week long maintenace/restoration blitz? I would definitely make it more feasible for me to volunteer over the course of a few days vs. a 6 hour round trip once every couple years.
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: E.B.T. Question/Suggestion
> I have a question/suggestion concerning the
> E.B.T. As a resident of eastern PA and a
> fellow armchair member of the F.E.B.T, it's
> not always easy for me to make the 3 hour
> trip to do volunteer work. Has anyone tried
> or proposed doing something similar to the
> Friends of C&TS week long
> maintenace/restoration blitz?

Well, it's a good suggestion for the FEBT. Of course, the work would have to be on the FEBT-controlled properties at Robertsdale--the operating EBT employs its own paid staff and volunteers do not work on the core EBT.


eledbetter@mail.rypn.org
Author:  Mike Shirk [ Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steamtown NHP
What burns me up the most about Steamtown was after the NPS spent big wads of cash and time researching, rebuilding and restoring many of the historic buildings on the property, pork barrel Joe (with the blessing of the Scranton) levels 4? blocks of beautiful period buildings that at the very least could have been gutted on the inside thereby preserving the existing facades and incorporate a mall that would have blended in well with the surrounding architecture. Instead, we have another big ugly, pre-fab monster of a @#$%^@ mall. The city of Paris has a wonderful ordinance that allows interiors to be gutted, but the exterior facade must remain to not disrupt the local fabric of the city. I know I'm preaching to the choir when I say this, but we as a nation have much to learn about preservation and history on many levels. In Southeastern PA, they think nothing about destroying 200 year-old farm houses to make way for drug stores and strip malls. Realistically, everything can't be preserved, but much of the time alternative uses can be found to readapt existing structures for new usages. I just hope the guy who invented aluminum siding is burning somewhere in hell.
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