Again folks, we have another go 'round in a lower thread about steamtown. My response is for those that care about a balanced perspective.

1.) The money spent. If you really know what's going on, you realize the DL&W yard (like any other RR yard that old) was a superfund (CERCLA) site. 2/3 of the money spent was for environmental cleanup. Lets face it folks, once conrail transferred ownership to the City of Scranton- There's was no chance of recovery from the Lackawanna, Conrail, Scranton. So guess what..we were paying "big wads of cash" anyway.

2.) As for the mall, its sucks, no denying it. It looks like crap and the damn thing can't support its businesses. Nonetheless, we lose a lot of historic stuff to what economist Joseph Shumpeter called "creative destruction". How many roundhouses have gone down in the past few years? Lima is going to be a stripmall. I don't like that, but dammit nonething lasts long beyond the days its pays for itself. Unfortunately, its a fact of life. Property must be able to earn its keep. Anybody who thinks Paris is so great, there's planes leaving every day. Be wary of Mad Cow.

3.) The 2816 has gone to a good home and will run again. It may return for a visit someday as Steamtown is right next to the CP. May a 2816 2317 doubleheader? Who knows? If it happens it will be because they were smart enough not to hoard things in their collection.

4.) Mr McDade on balance served his district well. I didn't always agree with him, but at least in Pennsylvania, we elect people who are alive.

I wish the whiners would give it up already. We should have an 11th commandment on here. If you can't say something (anything) nice about somebody else's operation, say NOTHING.

There's a lot of useful, interesting, great stuff here. Lets stick to business and stop ripping things apart because they aren't perfect. Its a sloppy world.

With all due respect. You're missing my point. Please realize that I was not bashing Steamtown nor was I necessarily complaining about malls. My beef is that something better should have been done to incorporate the existing buildings into the master plan instead of tearing them down. I realize that the harsh economic reality of any venture involves making a profit in order to exist. If that means the Lima complex needs to become another mall to survive then so be it.

Instead of squandering the past, wasting valuable resources or scarce monies it behooves us all to find more creative ways to recycle/reuse buildings. It not only makes good business sense, but it also preserves irreplaceable pieces of our history. Obviously everything can't be saved or used for its original intended purpose, but we can find other adaptive uses that are economically viable. My point about Paris is to merely emphasis that they at least have the foresight to have a cohesive plan in place for aesthetically enhancing and protecting the character and history of the city.

I too am from Pennsylvania and if I remember correctly, Joseph McDade did about as much bas as he did good. It was his own greed that more or less brought his checkered political career to a screeching halt. Yes there is a lot of useful and interesting stuff on this board, but if I want to "whine" as you put it, I'm going to. Let Bob, Erik and Hume decide what's out of bounds.

Guys, the problem is not Steamtown or McDade or just bad design.

Our tax incentive structure and some preservation laws themselves penalize developers for reusing old structures and reward them for replacing them.

A legal and tax framework could be developed which would better encourage private developers and investors to preserve facades, streetscapes, etc. There is no political support for it. The preservation political base gets lost in details at the expense of larger picture issues (academic curatorial leadership) which seeks to raise the bar of preservation standards but has the unfortunate side effect of raising the costs of compliance beyond reason.

I think we all basically agree that Steamtown is a use of tax money that we can support as opposed to more bike trails, and anybody who has seen the capabilities in their shops and tried to work without a tenth of them can appreciate the value of having them exist anywhere in the USA.

Life isn't a choice between Steamtown and EBT. It is a choice between Steamtown and non railroad preservation expenditures.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave has it right!

The conventional building preservation community has and continues to distroy what they profess to want to save by standards that are too difficult and too expensive and which ultimately nix projects that might have been feasible had a more realistic approach to undertaken. Saving facades requires "structure and foundations as well as bracing" To meet the criteria of the Department of the Interior a major engineering project would have to be undertaken and even then the bearing walls that usually run perpendicular to the exterior would not necessarily suit the open space requirements need for mall retail. Do not even start to consider the floor to ceiling height problems.

In too many commnunities the historical (histerectal) preservation movement has become nothing more than the "taste" police. If it is cute they want to save it and then tell you what to do with your property. They have become an "unfunded mandate". and as a result contribute to more distruction then preservation. And talk about whiners!

Having served several years in government and having sat on Philaelphia's "Histerical Commission", I can tell you that the historical preservation community, in general, is generally based on the premise of "Don't do as I do, but do as I say".

They never once came forth with a rational proposal, and even worse when there were opportunities to really do something and money was available to do it provided there was a match in funds, they never lifted a finger to raise the matching money. They are a group of elitist whiners who would rather moan over cocktails and wine then roll up their sleves and solve problems.

If our great Uncle in DC is going to fund all kinds of extrainious BS, at least we got something that we can relate to in Steamtown. The same can be said of the State of Pennsylvania's efforts with respect to the K4.

If you only a had some idea of the tons of money wasted in government operations you would have some satisfaction that a few government coins have funded something that is in our collective field of interest.

The impressive thing about the management of Steamtown, is the effort to rationalize the collection. It is something that museums and so-called museums across the country should attempt to emulate.

I say "GREAT"! It is far better than $600 hammers,settlements of millions of dollars for police and other government abuse cases that never reach the papers because they are hidden from view, ghost employees, etc.



v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

> My final note: If you are going to whine, please be factually correct. McDade retired because of Parkinson's disease.

Agreed,

The Federal Government is the single biggest entity responsible for the destruction of not only historic properties, but just older properties in general through choking codes/regulations and lack of economic/tax incentives for developers, etc.

It's also the reason why suburban sprawl continues unabated surrounding most of our metropolitan areas. It's only been just recently that the state of Pennsylvania has tried to do something about this by passing anti-sprawl legislation and the Historic Home & Neighborhood Preservation bill to help stimulate the revival of declining, older neighborhoods and communities and the. Time will tell if things do change for the better.

Obviously not every historical building or artifact can be saved or recycled into some alternative use, but I at least believe there's room for improvement. I've written many letters to my senator/representatives, but unfortunately it will probably take a groundswell of support to make sweeping changes at the Federal level.

Bennett as ex-head of L&I for Philadelphia and your involvement on various commissions, I'm sure you experienced a great deal of frustration and aggravation to no end. Though every city has its share of problems with turf wars, archaic union labor rules, unwanted political influences, etc., etc., Philly seems to be one of the worst. The baseball stadium deal (not a supporter) seems to be a perfect example. It took forever for all sides to decide where the were going to build the damn thing. State of PA released funding for both Pittsburgh and Philly at the same time, but look who's playing in their new stadium. Hint, it isn't the Phils.

My bad about Mcdade's retirement from office. Bottom line is he and Bud Shuster are definitely in the hall of fame for pork barrel spending. It just so happens that in the case of Steamtown, it brings a collective smile to most of us railfans.

I still believe Steamtown's a good thing. I'm just disappointed that the city of Scranton didn't have the foresight to realize that they could have recreated a whole "period" historical district complimenting Steamtown. It certainly could have brought more much-needed tourist dollars into the region. Bottom line is I would just like to see us save more of those great old houses/buildings.

I want to clear up a few things about the worthwhile discussion about Steamtown, Scranton and the destruction of old Buildings.

First of all, the buildings/freight yard that sat where the mall does now, were never a part of Steamtown. The buildings were all owned by private individuals and purchased by the city of Scranton. The fate of those buildings was sealed long before Don Ball ever thought about bringing Steamtown to Scranton. Decay of those buildings had progressed at such a rate that none of them were salvageable or could be made to comply with today's standards. Merchants and customers were fleeing this area by the 1970's. While a mall is not top on every one's list of things they want to see next to a historic site of any kind, it certainly beats the alternative of a ghost-town down-town, that Scranton was by 1990. The mall, like it or not has made downtown Scranton an active place once again. Like a domino effect, other businesses located to the down town area, restaurants, stores and a theater have all opened since the mall came. Preservationists were no where to be found in the late 70's and early 80's when something COULD have been done with the down-town buildings. No preservationist group came forward with a viable plan to repair or re-use the buildings. It was always a case of "Don't do this, but don't ask us for an alternative". I, like most people, was sad to see the buildings go. I only have a few photographs now from Steamtown's 1990 Railfan weekend to remind me of what once was, but photographs and sentimentality were not enough of a reason to keep these decaying rat-holes standing.

The railyard (roughly a 12 track short term car storage yard) that was taken up by the mall was also, contrary to popular belief, never part of Steamtown National Historic Site. I know of at least one NPS employee who maintains a one man boycott of the mall, because in his words "They stole our yard". Such is not the case. The switch yard was never part of Steamtown property. It was Conrail's, then Scranton's and then the mall's, never Steamtown's

Would I have liked to see the switch yard and the downtown buildings saved, hell yes. Was it possible, hell no. In todays world, one has to make compromises. If it helps to put things into perspective, if the National Park Service had not been brought in, the next plan, and I've seen the drawings, was to put the Mall where the roundhouse was!

Rep. Joseph Mcdade was not perfect, but he did more for the NE PA area than any other politician. Its a politician's job to make the living conditions better in his district plain and simple. He is only called a Pork Barrel-er because, quite frankly, he was better than anyone else at his job.

bing@epix.net

Greetings,

I'm just happy with what we ended up with.

God Bless,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

hrrhs@aol.com