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| "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading Ins https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17551 |
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| Author: | Tom Cornillie [ Tue May 24, 2005 8:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading Ins |
Hello all,A photo (linked below) shows the former Chesapeake & Ohio, Pullman Standard built sleeper City of Ashland in service last weekend on a excursion operated by Lake Central Rail Tours. What modifications have been made to this car to enable it to enter such service? When I last saw the car in 2003 it remained virtually untouched since leaving revenue service - a remarkable survivor. http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=107173Tom Cornillie |
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| Author: | Steamrunner [ Tue May 24, 2005 8:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Tom,I oversaw the return to service of the City of Ashland.The following work was performed:-Many new window seals-Minor floor repair to one roomette and main hallway.-Interior Painting-Exterior Painting-Roof Painting-Hidden in a battery box is a 480V to 240V 3PH transformer. This allows it to be "plugged in" to a more standard Amtrak type HEP connector.-The original electrical system is intact and working just fine while acting as if it is on stand-by power while in motion.-Brake system was recertified.-Added baseboard heat to bedrooms only.This was generously donated to the Steam Railroading Institute by John Baldwin and Steve Zuiderveen. When received, it was like a time capsule with the interior looking like it did the day it was removed from service in 1971. It still had the "Green Safety" cups in the bedroom dispensors. TP still in the holders in the bathrooms. No critter damage, little mold or mildew. They don't come much better than this after 34 years in storage. Agreed: "A remarkable survivor!"We are very fortunate to have this piece as a teaching tool for our steam-era railroading educational programs.Dennis BraidExecutive DirectorSteam Railroading Institute |
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| Author: | Tom Cornillie [ Tue May 24, 2005 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Dear Dennis,Thanks for the update. I am glad that the car was not greatly modified, however - I have to admit that I am very sorry to hear that any mechanical modifications were made to this car. There are fewer and fewer DC/Steam Heat cars out there (and this car was one of the best) while the price for all electric HEP equipment is dropping all the time. Our generation may not see this as a big problem, but I fear that future generations will only have hybridized cars or Amtrak heritage equipment with which to attempt to study the perils and promises of operating equipment from this era. Tom Cornillie |
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| Author: | Steamrunner [ Wed May 25, 2005 12:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Tom,Not sure this will make you feel a bit better but the electric baseboard units were installed in a manner preserving all the steam heat features. We simply drilled a few small mounting holes in the steam heat run ducting and attached the units (unconventionally) on the outside. I did remove the connections at each end of the car but stowed them safely away. This application of electric heat does leave the possibility for steam at a later date.The batteries were long gone, so to make the amplidyne work, we installed a correct amount of NI-CAD signal batteries. Again, preserving the battery wiring etc.We have an individual with vast experience in military electronics. He has been able to restore the amplidyne control unit and adjust it properly. The carbon piles calmed down after a few days and we now have the occasional but traditional light flicker.I have yet to finish the air conditioning repair. We have actually acquired enough R-12 refrigerant to fill it but tests indicated at least two leaks. I want to run it on the original recommended refrigerant for the first test in case we have a problem and can eliminate a substitute as the culprit. Another volunteer "expert" seems to have that in hand and we will attempt to run that feature this summer. I found a new rebult Frigidare compressor for it but have not had it delivered yet. I sense that the old one may have an internal problem. We will do all we can to run every system as original with the exception of the transformer in the box. For now, huge batteries would not be practical in the limited use this car will see.Seems all of our other railcars were "hybridized" to some extent before arriving here making the Pullman 10/6 sleeper the only candidate "to date" that we have any control over its originality.We are unable to locate the linin closet lock keys. I have remove a couple lock sets and were are attempting to have a locksmith design something.Unfortunately in the last 10 years of storage, someone did enter the car and strip almost all of the room and instruction tags. If there was a source, we would offer to buy them back.Dennis |
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| Author: | Dennis Storzek [ Wed May 25, 2005 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Dennis,I applaud the your efforts to preserve the original technology, using modern technology to adapt the current operating environment to the needs of the original equipment. If only more groups would just take that approach. |
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| Author: | Topfuel [ Wed May 25, 2005 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Dennis:I notice in the photo that the City of Ashland was operated as the lead passenger car in the train, behind the support equipment. Most steam excusions today have a diesel locomotive on the head end, partly to supply HEP to the rest of the train, but evidently you do not need to do this. With this in mind, it would seem that your group has the unique opportunity to use steam supplied by the "big black thing" on the head end to connect to the steam lines on the Ashland for heat and hot water. This asumes that the support cars have steam lines, or could have steam lines added without a major effort. Have you folks considered this?Also, I am restoring a similiar ex-C&O lightweight passenger car myself. I would like to find out what type and color of exterior and interior paint you chose for the restoration of the Ashland. |
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| Author: | Aarne H. Frobom [ Wed May 25, 2005 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Sorry, the present paint job on this car is a temporary expedient only. I wouldn't vouch that it matches the C&O colors exactly, although our version of "Enchantment Blue" is probably pretty close. I'm much less sure about the yellow, which seems too pale to match my recollection of these cars. The "C&O for Progress" stencils haven't been reapplied, although we do have tracings of the originals. Ultimately this car will need the kind of total residing job that a few ex-C&O cars have gotten already. So far as I know, none of those jobs reapplied the stainless sheathing over the new carbon-steel car sides, which poses a lot of engineering problems we haven't figured out yet.I'm a bit surprised to see that no one has pointed out that this car doesn't exist, since it is listed as scrapped in at least one passenger-car reference book. It spent two decades out of sight in Lima, Ohio. |
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| Author: | kbmayer [ Wed May 25, 2005 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
PM 1225 was made for freight service. It never pulled a passenger train till the MSTRP received it. So it was never equiped with the necessary steam lines.Kevin MayerLocomotive ManagerSRI |
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| Author: | eldiner [ Wed May 25, 2005 9:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Quote: Ultimately this car will need the kind of total residing job that a few ex-C&O cars have gotten already. So far as I know, none of those jobs reapplied the stainless sheathing over the new carbon-steel car sides, which poses a lot of engineering problems we haven't figured out yet. For our "sister" car NKP "City of Lima" we are thinking of using shadowlining instead of attempting to re-install the stainless-steel fluted siding.Tim StuyErie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Societywww.eldcps.org
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| Author: | fredstev [ Thu May 26, 2005 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Dennis Storzek wrote: Dennis,I applaud the your efforts to preserve the original technology, using modern technology to adapt the current operating environment to the needs of the original equipment. If only more groups would just take that approach. Dennis Storzek's quote above pretty well sums up my feelings on older railway equipment. I was part of the crew on the Owosso-Cadillac excursion, and rode most of the return trip in the City of Ashland. Talk about a trip down memory lane - the last time I rode in a Pullman roomette like that was when I was 15 years old, and bound for the west coast to visit my sister.Those Pullmans were good riding cars, and this one is the same, a little minor flatspotting on one wheelset is all that I noticed. They have the interior colors well matched for the era. The porter call bell even worked in my room and I enjoyed being able to annoy other crew members by ringing it and demanding that my boots be cleaned.As far as authenticity goes, everything is a compromise - if, for example, we did extend a steam supply line from the loco to the train, that would compromise the authenticity of the tender, auxillary tender and troop sleeper that we use for a tool car. Consideration simply has to be made for the fact that these pieces of rolling stock are not static displays, but functional equipment still in use.Fred Stevens
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| Author: | Tom Cornillie [ Thu May 26, 2005 10:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
I also applaud the efforts that recognized this car's uniqueness and the efforts to save as much of the car's original equipment. This is especially true in preserving the car's steam lines, DC electrical equipment and original air conditioning equipment. However, as others have pointed out - to continue to use a piece of equipment in regular service one has to compromise in using modern equipment. (obsolete sometimes means just that) However this also diminishes the value of the car to current and future generations who wish to better understand how technology shaped passenger operations (both good and bad) in a past time. There is a place for preserving cars in their original condition and configuration even if it means limiting its operating ability. Down the list on my things to do is to make a website (or publish in one form or another) a strategy for preserving cars with their original systems intact that also opens up fundraising support that preservationists have yet to tap. (if you are interested, contact me off the board)Also, I am not discounting the value of recreating the experience of operating a given piece of equipment. However in terms of dollars alone (discounting everything that I have said above) in most cases this is better done by purchasing equipment that has the mechanical equipment that best suits the desired operations. There has never been a better time to do this as passenger car prices are at all-time lows.- - - - In terms of repairing the fluting, has anybody examined the process that BNSF used in adding Pullman Standard style fluting to smooth-sided business cars that were once part of the Burlington Northern business car fleet. The Skykomish River now owned by Ozark Mountain Railcar has been modified in this fashion.Likewise, some economies of scale may be achieved if owners of this pattern of equipment collaborate in purchasing materials and developing repair techniques. |
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| Author: | Topfuel [ Thu May 26, 2005 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
Tom:I have talked to the BNSF mechanical people in Topeka about the methods used to apply the PS/ACF style fluting (both builders used essentially identical stainless steel fluting for the most part) to previously smooth-sided cars, something that is the exact opposite of what many railroads did during the 60's to their fluting-over-Cor-Ten-steel cars. In a nutshell, they simply made sure that the steel sides had a good coat of paint on them (generally Imron, I believe), and then they used a type of self-adhering matting to seal the steel side sheets and the stainless steel batten strips that were welded to the carsides to support the fluting. Then they applied the fluting in the usual manner using stainless fasteners. They are of the opinion that this will provide a long lasting surface under the fluting that will not rust out. Note that they did not replace the Cor-Ten side sheets with stainless sheets prior to adding the fluting. They did not think that was neccessary.On my own ex-C&O/B&O sleeper lounge, I plan to re-flute the car after repairing the side sills and side sheets. I have not yet decided whether to go with Cor-Ten or stainless side sheets under the fluting, but I am adamant about restoring the fluting because that is an important part of the original look of an ex-C&O "half-fluted" car. |
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| Author: | Tom Cornillie [ Thu May 26, 2005 8:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper of Steam Railroading |
I have wanted to talk to a metallurgist about the cor-ten problem for a long time now – as in other applications cor-ten steel will rust to a certain point and then stop – and its structural integrity and thickness will not be impacted. As I understand it, much of the rust had to do with corrosive cleaners that were used to clean passenger cars (both smooth sided and stainless) which became trapped between the sheathing and had nothing to do but rust. Likewise, I have read that the corrosion was galvanic – caused by a reaction between the cor-ten and stainless steel. To me the BNSF cars that have had siding look a tad odd – but I can’t pinpoint exactly why. In terms of their not resheathing the cars with stainless – I would imagine that it is a simple cost-benefit analysis on their part that when this work is necessary it may be more effective to purchase something that is in better condition.Tom Cornillie |
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| Author: | LightningStripes [ Fri May 27, 2005 12:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper--CorTen steel. |
I am not a metallurgist but I have talked to several and have a good understanding of the material and how it was intended to be used. Cor-Ten is steel with a small percentage of copper added into the mix (less then 20%?). The intention is to create a hard "crust" of corrosion on the outside of the material that makes it more rigid and able to carry the same load as a member that would otherwise be larger and therefore weigh more. The "railfans" will tell you that Cor-Ten is a failed product and a bad idea but it is actually used in bridge and building construction all the time. If you ever see a newer steel bridge that has rusted looking members...thank Cor-Ten. I think the new Charlotte football stadium has Cor-Ten structural members.What was the "problem" with Cor-Ten? I am not sure the material was the problem. I think it was education of car inspectors and shop foreman. If you talk to the old-timers, on the SanteFe for example, they will tell you something like "the side sills kept rusting no matter how many times we ground them down and repainted them". Hence the problem. If they had just left them alone and not worried about the scaly, rusty appearance the sills would have held up. But the constant grinding weakened and material and caused a lot of undue concern. As the previous poster said "cor-ten steel will rust to a certain point and then stop". That is exactly the point, that is exactly what it is intended to do.Was this a good choice for a material to use in car construction? That is a debate that could go on forever like "what if the Myans had escalotors", we will never know. But please do realize that a lightweight passenger car is about 20 tons lighter then a heavyweight and that difference may or may not been acheivable without modern, strong Cor-Ten Steel.Some of the other problems we see may actually be the result of just plain old rust resulting from constant contact with water, just like in heavyweight Pullmans. |
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| Author: | NewHaven0401 [ Fri May 27, 2005 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "City of Ashland" sleeper--CorTen steel. |
see linkhttp://www.aisc.org/MSCTemplate.cfm ... FaqID=2311 |
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