Anyone have any (educated) comments about the Pokey Smokey item in flimsies? How does an all new $227,000 Chance rides train become cheaper than a steam rebuild?Please no rants about government or insurance, I have a sincere interest in the issues related to park-scale train rides.Does Pokey Smokey have an advocacy group?

Steven,A friend of mine who lives in Virginia Beach sent me the link to the article. It looks like the park brought in a dreaded "consulting firm" who of course immediately said "get rid of the steamer". It's curious that the steamer recently had its boiler inspected satisfactorily by the state boiler inspector but of course it's obsolete and too expensive to overhaul.Steam will always require more care and more thought to operate than internal combustion, so those are points against it. It also sounds like the park employee that operates "Pokey Smokey" may be the main instigator of the complaints about the engine and railway. He may be suprised to find that he's complained himself out of a job if they buy the new IC engine.It seems to me that the main problem is that Crown Metal Products is no longer around and therefore there is no advocate for steam. I'm sure there are several people who frequent this board who have active steam restoration businesses and who could straighten out this engine without much difficulty. I doubt that the park has much interest in finding them however. Maybe one of them could approach the park about the possibility of overhauling the engine?Regards,

I sent a letter to the editor, now I wish I had saved it. Basically, I pointed out that my Model T also wasn't "up to modern standards" but that it was not about to be junked. I also mentioned that Steam, by its very nature, is not "modern" and that railroad safety is maintained by the operators. I pointed out that an Amusement Park ride consultant does not really understand a RAILROAD, which is what the "Pokey" is, even though it is smaller than most. I also pointed out that any gas-engined loco is not a steamer, but only a caricature of one, a sham. I then mentioned that there are many Live Steam enthusists around who can provide the needed expertise, and may even volunteer their knowledge to keep steam running. I didn't mention that out here, volunteers built a mile-long 15" gauge live steam railroad that still operates, and does have wheelchair access. It is in the Glenn County Fairgrounds. The park commission needs to try other, non-traditional approaches to preserving and operating this bit of "living history." Your childern deserve a chance to see it.S'David Dewey

Bert Williams (son of Crown founder Ken Williams) ran 'Capital Ridge Products' for several years after the demise of Crown to provide parts and services to support the line well into the future. Tweetsie Shops purchased the business, not to mention they have already rebuilt a handfull of Crowns all the way up to 3'. Crown may not be around manufacturing locomotives anymore, but the materials and expertise needed to keep them up is certainly there, not to mention a state over from Virginia.New steam this size is certainly availible new, though most of what is on or advertised on the market today are primarily scaled-down models for use on a select few park operations and for use by backyard hobbyists, not as simplified (as much as steam can get, anyways) amusement park rides.Indeed the issue with the consulting firm here might be the failure of an outsider to understand steam is the farthest thing from a 'turnkey operation' around. It takes hard work, but brings in droves of crowds. The amusement people these days especially fail to understand steam. One small-scale tourist operation came under the jurisdiction of the ride people, who argued the railroad is an amusement ride as it starts and ends at the same place with no stops in between. One of the lunatics wanted the backhead of a steam locomotive to be labeled; of course, welding engraved markers on to any part of the boiler is illegal for the railroad to do without an "R" stamp, not to mention you can't throw anyone who can operate a lawnmower engine in the cab (or tender seat) of anything with a boiler. I'm curious (and it sounds like it is) if "Pokey Smokey" falls under an amusement ride classification locally in Virginia.

The question is, should a park not committed to continuing to operate steam power be forced to do so against their will and with a guarantee of less than satisfactory results should they continue to do so. I don't see this decision as a rational one based on costs of overhauling what probably needs usual running repairs at most, but as a rational response to the political and emotional discomfort bureaucrats must face when dealing with specialized, skilled, and uncommon requirements of running steam. If it is enough to force bureaucrats past their characteristic resistance to change, it must be pretty high on their discomfort priority list. The consultants no doubt aren't "steam railroad people" but then why should they be when their job is to justify the desires of the bureaucrats that hired them? And, good steam mechanics don't necessarily understand amusement park management issues either. Chance products offer a comfortable and easy middle ground. Tweetsie is faced with the possibility of relocation as the lease on their land runs out, and they aren't in the amusement park steam promotion business anyhow as Crown was, they just fix them for a price. I don't see them out there pushing hard against their IC competition, because they don't see it as competition. They would gladly repair a Chance engine too. Unless political pressures more discomforting than those now at work are brought to bear, the best we can hope for is the Crown will be sold to an operator who is committed to its continued use. I'd surely not want to see it rusting away on a panel of track into the indefinite future where it isn't wanted anyhow.dave

Personally I think the last few lines say a lot about the mentality here

What frustrates me is that there is needless resistance from both steam fans and ride consultants, and the partisan nature of the recommendation. On the consulants recommendation, the issues of fencing, handicapped access, ride safety, etc. are distractions. The Chance rides train is no different from the train currently in place, except for the mode of engine power. The same issues of seatbelts, braking, and ride stability exist for the new commercial equipment. Having children and having visited quite a few commercial amusement parks recently, I have seen no tangible difference between the Chance rides installations and a traditional park train ride. None of the installations: Louiseville Zoo, Cincinnati Zoo, or IdleWild, PA had seat belts or chained entry/exit. Only IdleWild had wheelchair space, that I recall. The Cincinnati Zoo has numerous pedestrian crossings. And the zoos have the added hazard of wild animal proximity to the train.On the steam fan side, sometimes objections are made on the basis of nostalgia instead of accomodation. For example, labeling the controls need not be difficult or offensive. A few stamped brass plates, or even painted labels, could do the job. I have worked on full size steam, and sometimes been frustrated that the only way to determine what a valve did was to turn it on. Years ago there was a similar complaint about a regulatory request for a dead-man (or "man overboard") control on a steam park train. Thinking creatively, could it have been done? I think so. How about a small chain from driver to a small brake line dump valve, similar to the safety stop cords on treadmills? The Minneapolis streetcars had sprung brake handles that went into full application if you let go, so the request is not so "modern". Instead of objecting to a regulatory request, individuals should reflect on the safety issue raised, and try to offer a solution.It also appears the train crew has some responsibility for this problem. One would assume they have more than just a paycheck interest in this train. Apparently, the current situation resulted from a crew complaint. That is why I asked about an advocacy group. It would seem some locals are interested in this train, but have not expressed themselves.The recommendation to buy the Chance rides train seems heavily biased. Is there a sales commission involved?

Nice to see some considered opinions in this thread.The bottom line questions here seem to be "does the average train rider at an amusement park notice whether the motive power is real steam or not?" and "would they care if they did?". Optimistically, I think even non-railfan types would chose steam over IC if they saw them side by side, but it would be awfully difficult to assign a monetary value to this and therefore it will likely not be justified to park management. I also doubt if the average rider would notice the difference in real and fake steam if the locomotives weren't side by side.It's interesting to me that the steam/IC debate here is so similar to what those who have tried to promote modern steam locomotives (Porta, Wardale, Girdlestone, McMahon, Day, DLM) have encountered. Even where there are valid reasons for maintaining or re-introducing steam (3rd world countries where there is cheap labor, cheap fuel, lack of foreign currency, difficulty in obtaining diesel replacement parts, and steam demonstrates comparable performance for the actual service), steam has rarely been retained and even more rarely re-introduced. In the eyes of modern managers steam operation requires too much thought and skill at many levels of railway operations. DLM has taken the "diesel" approach of offering a full package (modern steam locomotive, support in the form of training, printed manuals, spare parts, etc.) which is what I think it will take for steam anywhere (including this park) to have a chance. While Tweetsie supports Crown products I very much doubt they are able to offer any kind of comprehensive support for these locomotives. I'm not suggesting that DLM go into the park locomotive business (I doubt many parks could afford their products), but I do think that it's a pity there isn't more of a support network for Crown engines and that there are no modern Crown-equivalent steam locomotives currently in production.Regards,

That is not quite true; see: http://www.severn-lambusa.com/rail.html-James Hefner Hebrews 10:20a Surviving World Steam Project

Did Tweetsie buy the patterns, dies, etc from Castle Ridge to make new Crown engines? If so, once they clear the current crisis, new Crowns might be available. Strasburg is building a replica of the reputed worst engine on the V&T - and doing no doubt a better job than the original builders did. Fabricated cylinder saddles were used in other countries for reasonably large locomotives that didn't give up on steam as rapidly as we did. Modern patternmaking techniques might even make casting cost effective, and high pressure water cut steel makes replication of heavy forged items a breeze. There has never been a better time to build a steam locomotive than today from a technological POV - who has an economic need to do so? I'd take on the job in an Atlanta minute. dave

I believe Tweetsie did acquire the patterns, drawings, and whatever else Bert Williams had, probably close to 4-5 years ago. I understand Hershey Park has been purchasing parts for their two Crowns from him for several years. There's no point in hiding the fact Crowns weren't the cream of any crop, just simplified steam to be operated with as little (as possible, with steam) training by the park's managements. I'd rather see the steam go than let the locomotives get to the point where they are a threat to the crews and passengers when under steam. It's not uncommon for old Crowns, or any amusement park locomotive, to be purchased and restored to run on some lucky fellow's backyard pike.Not to mention, Chance is far from the only firm capable of manufacturing a suitable replacement should the operators of "Pokey Smokey" not see it back into continued service. An Arizona firm has been turning out droves of impressive steam outlines for closing on two decades, which knock the socks off a Chance train. In addition, the legendary Bud Hurlbut still has his shop open, who's produced about eight 2' steam outlines, probably the most well-known being the Nut Tree in Vacaville, CA.

Here is the first article, May 28:http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=87081&ran=220166And this morning's article:http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=88272&ran=57036