Hello all,In light of to recent (past 2 years) derailments involving passenger cars, the derailment on CSX of a group of nee-Long Island via Ken Bitten to the New Hope and Ivyland and a group of nee-CNW Bi levels on the CN (Dan Behr to AMT ?) - have new policies been created for such movements?Many thanks,Tom Cornillie

The ELDCPS just concluded moving its Lackawanna diner 470 from Tacoma, WA to Kansas City via BNSF. We were quoted two prices, the lower one with the railroad accepting zero liability for the move. This price was less than half the regular quoted price. It took a lot of legwork on my part dealing with the risk management department to have endorsements added to our RPCA liability and damage policies. It cost us $100 to have the liability policy modified.The actual move went off without any problems. The car was inspected and ok'd for movement with no restrictions. It traveled rear-end only and was sent on a through train (Q-TACKCK1-23A). I understand it took some effort to mount the FRED device on the car.The only other surprise was that BNSF insisted on prepayment. Overall, it went well. I would just be prepared for a lot of paperwork. We had no specific deadline for the move which was a good thing. I would say it took over two weeks to meet their requirements before they moved the car.

I think each railroad issues its own internal directives regarding acceptance and movement of passenger equipment in freight service. A general rule of thumb is 1) roller bearing trucks; 2) in-date air brake; 3) compliance with FRA mechanical and safety appliance rules; and 4) registered in UMLER and equipped with AEI scanner tag. Waivers and exceptions can always be made based on individual circumstances. Inspection by railroad mechanical forces prior to movement is to be expected.I have seen a transportation notice for movement of two bi-level commuter cars on a class one railroad that included the following instructions:"Approved for movement Rear End Only.When not moving, passenger equipment should be held in safe, secure areas to avoid vandalism.Riders/Attendants are prohibited from accompanying privately owned passenger cars when moving in freight service.Do not hump nor switch passenger equipment with motive power detached.Do not couple to or into with more force than necessary to make coupling. Handle carefully to avoid external and internal damage.No trailing tonnage is permitted behind foreign passenger equipment unless the foreign car is not EOTD compatible and mechanical department approves one freight car to trail the passenger car for the purpose of accepting the EOTD."These formalities aside, I have also seen more casual arrangements made when only local trains and short distances are involved.Alan Maples

In general, the real problem in cases of the sort highlighted by Maples is that 1) freight RRs no longer know how to handle passenger cars (it's not covered in the AAR manuals or employee timetables, and there's no chance the RR's freight employees will encounter an interchange passenger car save for their own business cars), and 2) increasingly, a freight employee will view the en-route passenger car as a potential source of "problems" that can just as easily be "forgotten" and passed on to the next employee to worry about. For every worthy car knocker who gives the car a clean bill of health, there's an employee who refuses to take the car because the steam hose or MU cables *might* trip a dragging-equipment detector. I've strapped up MU cables with bungee cords and plastic straps, removed a dangling hose with a glad-hand rubbed to half its weight, and bolted doors shut with metal straps I found lying in the yards. I've had to help replace ditch lights smashed on a locomotive by protruding car platforms, too--although the lights in question weren't quite applied "by the book".I don't have the specifics of the two derailments mentioned, but I do believe that both cases came down to train-handling errors (and a rider in the one case). These are the very situations that can result in detrailments, and is the major reason we see to it that these cars are at the rear of such trains. In my personal experience, single cars by themselves are seldom a problem; the problems occur when the railroads handle a cut of four or six passenger cars in a yard like a cut of hopper cars rather than like the more analgous cut of auto racks. (I once saw several heavily-loaded baggage cars leave Baltimore behind the motive power of a long westbound train, and even though the cars had been reinforced for such handling, the buffing/dragging forces involved in getting that train out of town had my hair standing on end--I wanted to be nowhere near this train!)I once saw a car I was escorting across the country leave the yard in the middle of the expediter freight rather than the end--in spite of my explicit instructions to the young-pup yardmasters to handle this car on the rear. The car's owner told me by cell phone, "You told them what to do. They screwed up. If they damage the car or derail the train, you're the witness--it's THEIR fault. Now let it roll and cross your fingers." The yardmaster at the terminating yard blew his stack and reamed the originating yardmasters a new one when that train showed up--with discernible draft gear damage.

The normal BNSF tarrif rate for passenger cars is just about $4.00 per mile. Are you saying you were able to get the 470 moved for less than $2.00 per mile on BNSF by accepting zero liablility?

To be honest with you, I didn't even look at the tariffs. We only had two choices, UP or BNSF. The first rate we were quoted was well over $4.00 per mile. The second rate was still a little over $2.00 per mile. How they came up with either number was not questioned by us.

I've only had to move a few passenger cars in freight service but every one of them has ended with a good war story, including the cross-town switch that concluded with the car disabled over 100 miles away in the middle of a class yard.My most basic rules are1. Route around class yards whenever possible (I am arranging a move right now that involves a non-standard route, local trains only, rebilling on an intermediate short line, etc. - I'll pay two tariff charges, but it will be worth it to stay away from a known trouble spot.)2. Be sure the equipment has AEI tags, and be sure they are properly programed with the CORRECT reporting marks. (Cars and locomotives without tags are simply invisible.)3. Pray to the Handbrake God that your car does not arrive with flat wheels.4. If it's a local move, take the Trainmaster to lunch.Alan Maples

In my experience the escort, whether he is riding or chasing, should plan on buying coffe, sodas, pizza et c for the crews involved. I can also tell my own horror stories of a movement from near Philadelphia to near Allentown by way of Sherbrooke, PQ.GME

Buying the crew lunch is well nigh impossible at 7 AM in the middle of a blizzard at the end of a yard ten miles from "civilization". Besides, it's not the train crew that has anything to do with it--usually the yard assembled the train for them, and they just get in and pull back on the throttle. And all the bribery in the world won't help you if the power desk in Jacksonville or Omaha won't give them power for the train that day, despite the yard having something on the order of 50-100 locos within site of the tower.I'll see your Philly-PQ-Allentown move and raise you a Chicago-NY State movement (without an escort) where the car turned up eventually in Elko, Nevada. Wrong direction, wrong railroad, and several states and classifications later.On the other hand, there HAVE been occasions where railroaders have been astute enough to remember "hey, we shipped some cars like that through here a while back" and called one of my clients out of the blue, asking "are these your cars, perchance?" "Err, no, that's a different owner, and I told him not to ship them without AEI tags......"

It's not just passenger cars. Try moving ANYTHING out of the ordinary. We work with some shortlines that have purchased ex-CR MOW equipment, and even if it is going to a shortline directly connected to the seller, the seller may refuse movement - which can be really aggravating when you discover the wheels are still shiny from recent movements. Now its unsafe to move to get it to you.I had an old railroader once tell me that the 'best lubricant for friction-bearing cars is a case of Scotch'. Those days are pretty much passed, but the principle still has vestiges in the real world. Your reputation, connections, and friendships will all get pulled into it, and there's still no guarantee.One more personal tip - if you're putting an AEI tag on it yourself, or if a contractor is, make SURE that the darn thing isn't on upside-down. An upside-down AEI tag is invisible to most readers. A hand-scanner can verify that. I had a client loose a locomotive for six weeks on Class-1's because the tag was on upside-down. For truly oddball stuff like steam, I heartily recommend looking at making them into a flatcar load, the way that 148 was moved to Colorado. There's just so many horrible things that can happen to steam moved dead on its own wheels....if you can even get anybody to talk to you about it.

The attached picture shows a car we moved last week over the CPR, with all of the conditions Alan mentioned required, plus CPR accepted no liability for any damage while in transit.

A stack train behind a lightweight is no big deal. We once inadvertantly discovered that you can pull a 13,000-ton coal train with a heavyweight with paper-clip Sharon couplers no less, orders to handle on rear of train only notwithstanding. The drawheads fractured but stayed together.

How about a car loaded on a flat, shipped from E. St. Louis on the way to Savannah, making it to Chattanooga, being sent back to E. St. Louis, before finally going back to Chattanooga and on to the destination? Approximately 2 months from loaded on the flat to final destination! Whew!

What about the one time amtrak shop moves? What is necessary to meet their criteria?

The car must meet and pass the private car criteria for a PC-1 (annual inspection) and not have any of the physical characteristics that ATK does not allow; such as rim stamped wheels, out of date COTS, wood under steel sides, etc. They generally will only allow these moves for cars that are being forwarded to the location where they are to receive an overhaul to full PV status; ie PC-2 inspection and installation of HEP; however, they have been known to move "professional" passenger cars going to new gigs; i.e. Chicago Metra gallery cars.Steve ZuiderveenAmtrak PV Inspector