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Steam Boilers
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18141		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ted Miles [ Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Steam Boilers
I continue to be amazed about how much money the Form 4 15 year certifications are costing for steam locomotives.The American Bureau of Shipping has just re-certified the fire tube boiler on the steam tug Hercules here at the Maritime Park. The bioler is from 1907 with four furnices and of course new fire tubes. It did not cost anything like the $200,000 amounts that I have seen here lately! So please a couple of basic steam questions?Are boiler tubes differeent from standard schedule pipe? Do they get special inspections?Installing them with the traditional rolled ends is a lot of work and time. Is there a more modern system, such as welding available?There has been much discussion here lately about swapping out the old rivited pressure vessels with a new welded one. Does that change any of the Form 4 or the time between inspections?Ted Miles
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:26 pm ]
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Author:  softwerkslex [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
I would like to hear more about the Hercules, and the Eppleton Hall too. Are you directly involved? Will the Hercules operate next summer?Marine boilers are very different from locomotive boilers. Marine boilers do not have all the flat surfaces that locomotive boilers have, that require all kinds of belts and suspenders to keep the pressure in. As Kelly mentioned also, marine boilers do not usually have anything other than near pure distilled water, because of their condensing cycle. An exception of course is the Eppleton Hall, which used sea water in its boiler, and the Belle of Louisville, which uses river water today. Marine boilers also have much less stressful duty cycles. They fluctuate maybe a few pounds in pressure while enroute. On a locomotive, depending on the crew skills and cooperation, pressure can fluctuate twenty pounds in the course of a trip.
Author:  gmray [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
Excuse my ignorance on this subject, but are not most marine boilers of the watertube type? Whereas locomotive boilers are firetube?
Author:  Mark D. [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
One question from Ted Miles that has not been addressed is the construction of boiler flues. I don't know off hand the astm number of the materia, but it certainly is not standard pipe. For one thing, it is not very thick. Not like Sched. 80 pipe. For another, it is seamless. It is designed to promote heat transfer, resist cracking, and to be somewhat flexible. Locomotive boiler flues are generally rolled at both ends because they have to be able to twist and flex as the machine bounces down the rails. One end is usually seal welded, the other not as far as I can recall. And, yes, it seems most marine boilers are water tube. I also recall the Pennsy or other eastern railroad experimented heavily with watertube boilers for locomotives, but it was never very successful. Mark D.
Author:  Ted Miles [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
folks,It is all a matter of what time period you are talking about. We have four steam boats at the Park all built around the turn of the 20th century i.e. the early 1900s Three of them are fire tube and one is water tube.fire tubes were very simple to operate and maintain. But they can explode, which will to say the least ruin your whole day.Up until World War I most small merchant ships like the Railroad Navy tugs, ferry boats and other harbor craft had fire tube boilers.Larger and faster ships like the USS Texas or Atlantic Liners went with water tubes. Our British paddle tug has two Tyne tugboat boilers; which are a step back further still. Her boilers have no tubes at all. They are, as far as I know, the only existing examples afloat in the worldMystic seaport Museum operates the coastal steamboat SABINO, which is the only hand fireed coal burning steamer on salt water in the United states. She has a delightful little steam plant where you can see all the parts and pieces. Do go to Mystic and take a river cruise you'll be glad you did!Ted Miles
Author:  survivingworldsteam [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
gmray wrote:
Excuse my ignorance on this subject, but are not most marine boilers of the watertube type? Whereas locomotive boilers are firetube?
It really depends; both fire and watertube boilers were used. Once again, the Battleship Texas and the RMS Titanic make good examples to compare. Both were built in roughly the same timeframe (launched May 1912 and May 1911, respectively).The Titanic was fitted with twenty-nine Scotch fire-tube boilers in six boiler rooms. Scotch boilers basically had one to three big firetubes (or furnances), you can see them at: http://www.historyonthenet.com/Titanic/ ... ion.htmOne the other hand, the U.S.S. Texas had fourteen large water tube boilers in four boiler rooms. Between July 1925 and November 1926, the Texas was modernized; at which time these boilers were replaced with six oil fired water tube boilers. They were installed in pairs in three boiler rooms (the fourth boiler room space was used for the Plotting and Secondary Battle Telephone Switching Room, oil tanks, and a cofferdam):http://users3.ev1.net/~cfmoore/operating%20systems/boiler%20room/BOILERS.htm http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/gall ... 1/P1010751 Early steamships used Scotch boilers, and it looks like the British stayed with them longer. I believe Babcock and Wilcox invented the marine water tube boiler; there is a good website on marine boilers at: http://www.steamesteem.com/Click on the Boiler Constructions link. You will see a nice drawing of a water tube boiler. Then click on Babcock and Wilcox to read about them, then Scotch Marine Boiler to read about them. There are tons of other boilers described as well.The "pipes" that Ted mentioned were probably water tubes; they do look like ordinary pipes. Fire tubes look more like a tube, with no fittings in the end. The ends are usually flaired or rolled into the tube sheet.-James Hefner Hebrews 10:20a Surviving World Steam Project
Author:  Ted Miles [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
Steven,Yes, I work full time at the Maritime Park and am close to the decision makers.Our licensed Chief Engineer has retired at age 80, so we have to find a replacement. I do not know when the Hercules will steam again. But we are in touch with the engineers aboard the Libery Ship Jeremiah O'Brian which is the largest operational museum ship in the world. There is a lot of engineering talent over there!By the way, Hercules has a 1,000 horsepower triple expansion steam engine. Her cylinders are 17, 24 and 41 inches across. Her working pressure was 180 pounds and now we operate her at 150 pounds.She is the only ocean going steam tug afloat in the USA. Ted Miles
Author:  R L Musser [ Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
Boiler tubes may be seamless as in SA-192, or ERW (electric resistance welded) like SA-178 in various grades. (typically Grade A) Generally, the tube wall thicknesses used in locomotive boilers are in the .105" to .180" range.
Author:  SZuiderveen [ Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
Ted Miles wrote:
But we are in touch with the engineers aboard the Liber[t]y Ship Jeremiah O'Brian which is the largest operational museum ship in the world. There is a lot of engineering talent over there!
Ted,Imagehttp://www.liberty-ship.comThe claim that the Jerimiah O'Brian is "THE largest operational museum ship in the world" is not quite all there, as the John W. Brown in Baltimore, a sister Liberty ship, is also operational. I also believe there are three Victory ships, slightly larger; that are either operational, or almost operational in museum situations.Steve ZuiderveenBaltimore, MD
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:12 am ]
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Author:  Ted Miles [ Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
Steve,I have to agree with you about the John W. Brown. She is really something to see!However, the Victory ships are steam turbin powereed and do not have nearly the clout that an up and down engine has. At least for me! Yes, the Lane Victory went out for a cruise last weekend and the American Victory has I think been out at least once or twice.Things are going slowly for the Red Oak Victory so the time is not yet that she is ready for operation. Thanks for the reminder on the J.B.!Ted Miles
Author:  Ted Miles [ Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
Kelly,Two questions to strt off. Isn't the Baltimore oil fired?I don't believe she has been run in more than ten years. When was her last operation?Re the TRAIN convention I think it may be possible tod do a steam boat tour. However it is at least a 90 minuite drive from Sacramento to downtown San Francisco.The elizabeth Louise does steam excursions out of the Sacramento water front. She is powered by a pair of 1880s Western River engines. A good bet there.If someone from the Convention staff contacts me by e-mail, I'll be glad to see what can be done.Ted Miles
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:47 am ]
Post subject: 
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Author:  survivingworldsteam [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam Boilers
With all of the recent discussion about steam boilers, I thought some viewers might enjoy this discussion about using welded replacement boilers on traction engines: http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22504As mentioned elsewhere, the boiler on a traction engine is usually the main structural element, and many are unlagged. Hence, the appearance of a welded boiler is critical to many traction engine owners.-James Hefner Hebrews 10:20a Surviving World Steam Project
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