The concession to operate a historic tourist line here out west has been awarded to a east coast bidder. They must create a rule book and operate the line "by the book".Given that the "brasshats" are from back east and therefore, very comfortable with the daytime hand signals used on that side of the river, is it appropriate (in the interest of #1 SAFETY and #2 efficiency) to use their daytime hand signals on this side--though historically inaccurate?Please, this is for purely hypothetical consideration and opinion--the concessionaire has every right, and in fact the obligation, to set the rules as they deem necessary to operate safely.sc 'doc' lewis

I think it is a compromise that all of us can live with if it means a safer operation. As all of here know, the operation of historic railway equipment in today's litigious 21st century environment is legally risky. Perhaps some discussion with the eastern "brass hats" could make the operation a little more historically accurate. But let's face facts. Only those of us who frequent boards like this will know or care about the signals used. If the alternative is to permanently park the equipment in question, then I think the answer is obvious. Let's get the next generation riding trains and interested in railway preservation, and if a change in hand signals is the only compromise, then that is fine by me.

Being from the east, and working out west, I was at first confused by the signals but it took me all of 2 minutes to understand them once explained to me. Historically, the basic set of signals was standard throughout the industry, but specific needs of different places and jobs caused additional "custom" signals to be developed by the crews. I figure whatever set of signals is agreed upon, trained, and understood by those who need to give and receive them is fine. So long as everybody understands them the same way, there should be no problem. In England, the station master blows a whistle and waves a tennis racket to highball - here, the conductor lifts and lowers his hand. Both work equally well. Tourist railroads are not run for the fraction of a percentage of us who know the difference - but for civilians out for a nice nostalgic experience. If they actually notice signals being given, they won't care what the signals are so long as they work. I'd sure rather spend my worry time on things that can improve their experience rather than debate which set of signals to use. It reminds me of why I left NRHS - over two hours spent discussing what color T-shirts the car hosts would wear on the Southern Steam excursion when we hadn't even sold the first seat. Let's focus on the things that matter.dave

My question is, which Eastern signals?There are two kinds of eastern signals -- relative to the way the engine is facing, and relative to the signaler. The only difference between the latter and "west coast" signals is that folks on the west coast use two hands while we east coasters use one.SCRM uses signals relative to the signaler. Spencer uses signals relative to the engine. I really wish the industry would standardize, as people coming from a "real" railroad get confused as do volunteers coming from other operations. Personally, I prefer signals relative to the signaler as it's easy to forget which way a locomotive is facing.

Any signal understood by the crew members work. On the SD&A - we have many "home signals". Try using "come to me" or "go away from me" during daylight hours - let the hogger figure out if they need to place the reverser in "forward" to "reverse".Same with radios - "go east" or "go west" - never need to figure out which direction that engine is facing!

Most of the traditional rule books only called out the night time lantern or the same as daytime flag signals. These were the official signals.Thirty years ago a railfan engineer told me that roughly at the Mississippi River the acceptance of different daytime hand signals occured. These being the come-to-me, go-away-from-me, etc. ones.

...here on the west bank of the river, come-to-me and go-from-me are the conventional daytime hand signals (together with some others such as set the brakes with a level side-to-side sweep at waist level).t'aint so on the east side of the river--where generally, the night lantern signals and the daylight hand signals are the same motion. and that is what the back east 'brasshats' are calling for in their rule book (my son works for the company contracted to generate a number of the documents --rule book, service/maintance logs, training manuals, etc.) for said operator. oh, and jim, about the radio call to "take 'em east" or "shove 'em west"...is that direction judged by the compass, position of the sun or the timetable?here in Heber (BTW, not the location of the unhypothetical operation at the start of this thread) DRGW trains leaving to go to Provo to the west (into the direction of the setting sun) were eastbound trains on the timetable...go figure!sc 'doc' lewis

Using the radio, "back up" or "go ahead" means just that, no confusion. No two people give or interpret hand signals the same way, thus there is plenty of chance for error and an accident. I believe they should be used only in dire emergency, though there still needs to be a clear understanding of what they mean on the RR in particular.Here in the Northeast, an up and down motion of the hand or lantern means go ahead, a circular motion means back up, pretty simple. When our railroad was sold to those bums from the you-all country, their greenhorn instructor was trying to explain the southern system to our 30-plus year veterans and being pretty insulting about it, with plenty of "you Yankees this" and "you Yankees that" comments. Finally, a couple of guys had had enough and explained that that just wasn't the way we did it here. Their young hotshot finally realized he wasn't dealing with the off-the-street types they usually hired, nor was he wanted or needed. He soon packed his bags, leaving the next morning.

That's assuming everybody's radios are working properly and everyone knows how to use them correctly. I've heard some pretty garbled transmissions in my 10+ years at SCRM. Holding the mike too close to your mouth, starting to talk too soon after you've keyed the mike, and shouting into the mike will garble just about anything.I personally dislike using radios except in situations where they're absolutely necessary such as talking to the DS, or when I'm on the wrong side of a curve from the engineer. I've found just the opposite of your claim to be true -- it's easy to mishear a garbled radio transmission, but it's hard to misunderstand a hand signal so long as everybody's on the same page.My solution is to use BOTH when I'm switching -- give the engineer a radio instruction and continue to give a hand signal as long as I have a line of sight. This also prevents the single biggest danger that radios have -- losing track of where someone is and assuming he's clear when he isn't. A shortline near here coupled a guy up just a year or so back because of that.

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I am probably biased, but i say stick with the western signals. They are easier to understand and historicaly correct. Also, (if I am guessing right about the railroad) most of the conductors are used to the western (come to me and go away) hand signals.Jason Midyette

Just my opinion, but if the person on the ground or the engine does not have a functioning radio or know how to properly give signals with it, they really should not be moving. Hand signals are somewhat usable in close situations like hostling (I did it for 20 years, but we were the only ones moving on those tracks) or switching a couple of cars, but dangerous beyond that. Setting out cars from the middle of a 100 car train at 3AM, they're useless. Yes, most radio transmissions are recorded today, but if you use proper procedure and practice like they tell you to, there's not much to worry about. In Montreal, there's plenty of chatter on the yard channel in both English and French, but if we cannot properly communicate because of it, we don't move, period. And as for switching between radio and hand signals, our rules specifically state you must tell the engineer on the radio before doing so, as his eyes may not be trained on you if you're using the radio.

If a radio is necessary, by all means use it. But if somebody says "radios are more reliable than hand signals" I'm going to take issue with that because I don't believe it's true in all cases. Sometimes a radio is more reliable than a hand signal. Sometimes a hand signal is more reliable than a radio.If someone says "a radio should always be used if it's available" I'm also going to take issue with that. You have to consider the situation. Remember the first rule in most every rulebook I've seen: "When in doubt, the safest course must be taken." Sometimes it's safer to use a radio, sometimes it's safer to use a hand signal, and sometimes the safe way is to use both.

Bob, don't know what brand of radio you use or if you use a battery conditioner BUT sometimes after a couple years of use- NICAD's get a "memory effect", and they'll last a few hours before "crapping out". Give the ambient noise of a railroad its possible to miss the warning beeps that Motorolas (and I assume other brands) radios give. Worse the beep starts when the radio still has a significant amount of functionality left. The problem is that you start the day with a functioning device and then somewhere along the way- the diminished power cuts down on the "throw". (NICADS as I understand it are better than other technologies ONLY because of their resistance to cold weather- Bring on Lithium Ion and NIMh, please!)If the engineer is EXPECTING you to call, he/she will be alerted to the absence of your call. However if you aren't mindful of the potential for failure with radios- there can be a problem.Obviously hand signals don't work well on a 10 car passenger train or shoving a 50 car freight- BUT radios are just one arrow in the quiver and not a perfect one. There are times that hand signals are preferable to radios and if I can make eye contact-I'm a wavin'.