With the discussion below about the floods in New Orleans and the status of the locomotives located there, I was wondering when flood water would be considered too high for running a steamer on the track. The natural response would be with water level somewhat lower than the firebox floor, but think about the likelihood of the track to shift underwater. Would a steam loco be able to stay on track that is submerged? Or is it more a question of the track condition before the flooding?

Is "it depends" an evasive enough answer for you?It doers depend on whether the track in question has a water current running through it or not. It actually takes surprisingly little water to move weight such as ballast or the earth below it, as evidenced by the water-logged mattress thet four men can't pick up, but gets washed further and further down the side street and alley with every rain storm pressing an inch or two of water against it.When ex-Burlington/FW&D/IC steamers were used in flood duty in the 1950s, they were used in flat plains that were affected by rising rivers that only flooded the tracks and surrounding countryside with static water a few inches deep--deep enough to short out traction motors, but not enough to float an automobile or boxcar, by and large. No one, to my knowledge, attempted to send steamers through waters that had river or stream currents flowing either parallel to or perpendicular to the tracks.

Perhaps true but I seem to recall seeing photos of logging roads (Georgia Pacific perhaps?) where the road had rail lines laid right through streams that were running rather quickly. Of course this was with geared locomotives so that might make a difference.Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

Seems I have seen photos of steamers run through water a lot deeper than a few inches. The limit might be around 16-18 inches at which point water would begin to fill the friction bearing journal boxes on the tender trucks and on any trailing cars and equipment.You really do not want to pump and repack a train load of journals just to avoid a detour route.Bob Kutella

Having had the "privilege" of shepherding #89 through the Agnes flood of 1972, I can say with some certainty that the locomotive did not float. The empty tender did float and derailed the rear truck. It sank when the drawbar prevented its further rising and the water rose above the cab and popped the tank hatch filling the tank with water.Track conditions aside, it is my opinion that the locomotive could wade through water up to the firebox provided the cylinder cocks remained closed and the cylinders did not crack from the cold water. I believe this would be the functional limit but it would undoubtedly have an adverse impact on bearings and journals if they were not cleaned immediately after swimming. #89's journals needed only to be cleaned, repacked, and lubricated after which she ran fine from Wilkes-Barre to Strasburg. She was towed dead with the main rods up.I would say a locomotive could operate indefinitely in a water depth that did not allow water into the bearings. I believe it could operate with the bearings submerged for a limited time depending upon how much debris is in the water.

The Beech Mnt in West Va forded a couple of streams --- circa 1979 there was an RRE trip on it.Also, the limiting factor on how deep the water can be is how deep can it get before you can't tell whether the track is safe to operate over.Bob H

You are thinking about the Elk River Coal and Lumber Company which later became a Georgia Pacific operation in West Virginia. The railroad went in and out of Lilly Fork 42 times in 17 miles. To make the creek crossings they built low dams down stream to create an area of backwash at track level with a low flow rate even during floods. Washouts in the creek were relatively rare.I had the good fortune of working with ex ERC&LCo. engineer Ted Burdette while at Graham County. Shay 12 had gone through the creek so much that her journals were ruined. They spent much of nearly every day fighting journal fires. The engineer that proceeded Ted retired from the stress. Eventually the company purchased the 19 and 12 was retired. During flash floods the shays would come out of the woods, often after dark, and the creek would be rolling. In the headlight they could see logs and other debris floating in the water. Usually the only train brakes working were emergency on 2 or 3 of the log cars. With only the engine brakes to hold the train they could not stop. The shay would plow into water that was sometimes so deep the fire would go underwater and extinguish. When they were pulling out of the water on the other side with the throttle open the fire would whoof back to life and they would go on to the next creek crossing. This continued until the train got to the BC&G mainline at Avoco which would be high and dry.Shay 19 still exists and operated on a couple of tourist railroads after leaving Georgia Pacific. Ted, now in his early nineties, is alive and at last report well enough to play his fiddle every Sunday at church. Sort of gives you a some respect for shays and the men who ran them. John Bohon

What great stories! Thanks to everyone for sharing.

John:This is without doubt, the operation I was thinking about! Now, can anyone come up with a photo of one of the Shays and the stream she was crossing? I know that I have seen one someplace.Thanks.Les Beckman

There are a few photos of trains in the creek in the book Buffalo Creek and Gauley by William E. Warden. These include one of an excursion train crossing Lilly Fork and the Climax crossing with a work train. There are other photos as well. John Bohon

Krause's "Rails Through Dixie" had a couple of photos.Mallory Hope Ferrell's just-published "Slow Trains Down South" has several views of the Shays and the Climax fording Lilly Fork.If memory serves me, I recall West Virginia's Beech Mountain Railroad may also have had some sort of low water crossing.Alan Maples

There is a video out there entitled "Shays, Lumbering and More" that has great shots of the Lilly Fork trains tiptoeing through streams. There are also scenes of the Meadow River Lumber Co. Heisler #6 crossing a "submarine trestle," creating a bow wave worthy of a heavy cruiser. Indeed, even the Graham County Railroad tiptoed through several stream between Robbinsville and Junction.

Try this old issue of Trains, showing a FW&D 2-8-2, pulling freights through the Red River on the Texas & Pacific. (I don't have this issue, so haven't seen it)http://www.index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=TRN&MO=10&YR=1957&output=3&sort=AThere is another photo on page 53 of the August 1958 Trains, showing T&P 2-8-2 400 (ex-FW&D 410) in deep water. Previous to purchase of the 410, I think T&P borrowed one of the FW&D's USRA Mikados for flood duty also, that may be the one in the 1957 issue.According to the captions, the 400 worked through up to 38 inches of water (above the driver axles). The photo shown was of Train 55 west, with the engine backing up with 125 cars. One drag was said to be 159 cars. It also said "At times water reistance was so great, she exhausted every 36 seconds, with throttle wide open and sounded more like a steamboat".The photos in the 1958 issue were by H.K. Vollrath. These are still available to my knowledge.

Here is the URL to the Illinois Central Yahoo group of a photo I posted there.The shot is an IC train through high water durring the 1937 flood.http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/il ... iew=tBruce Pierce

In support of Bob's post of running through deep water, those of you that have a copy of John Rehor's "The Nickel Plate Story" should check out page 354. Therein is a photo of a coal train being pulled through flood waters that competely submerge the trucks of the cars. In the distance you can see the exhaust plumes of the locomotives.Having worked for NS out of Decatur, IL, I can attest to them shoving trains through Hannibal, MO, when the Mississippi gets high. They will shove trains through with power waiting on the opposite side on high ground. If I remember right, they will only do this if the water is only 6" or less over the rail. Once it gets deeper than that, they detour.Kent