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| Rail Evacuation of New Orleans https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18444 |
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| Author: | atsfm177 [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
Almost as an afterthought, one of the reporters I was listening to earlier made mention of "officials" considering using trains to help evacuate New Orleans. While it's how I'd prefer to travel, how practical is it? I know Union Station in New Orleans is walking distance from the Superdome, but in what condition are the tracks going West (or North for that matter) from New Orleans? As I recall from my one rail trip to the Big Easy, the train has to cross the Huey P. Long Bridge. If the tracks or bridges are damaged, how close can they get to the City? And ther other part of the question, who has enough equipment that could be pressed into service to really make a difference? Even in these desperate conditions, I can't see anyone allowing the refugees to ride on freight equipment.Greg |
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| Author: | Don C. [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
Greg, It is not practical at all. Over on Trainorders, some of the more rabid posters seem to think that it would be no problem at all. Equipment is a problem, operating crews are a problem, diesel fuel is a problem not to mention the fact that virtually every route out of the city is flooded or damaged. Selected highway routes and helicopters are probably the ONLY way out other than maybe a cruise ship coming up the Mississippi River and taking on massive loads of refugees. This is unprecedented in its magnitude. The damage is unfathomable by those of us who can only watch on television. I lived in the area for three years and I am having a hard time determining what I am seeing due to the amount of water and damage. May all of us never see anything like this again in our lifetime. Meanwhile, provide any sort of support or monetary help that you can. And pray.Don C. |
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| Author: | Ray Reter [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
I have to wonder why local and state officials didn't think of this and, possibly, using their mass transit equipment to provide transportation to higher/safer ground for those without private transportation before the storm hit. It seems to me there was ample warning (a day or two) from weather forecasters of the seriousness of the storm. -- Ray |
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| Author: | mxdata [ Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
At this point neither railroad equipment nor Carnival Cruise Lines are very suitable transportation for the survivors. This situation really needs several USN amphibious assault ships with their helicopters and landing craft, and large contingents of US Marines, plenty of ammunition, and clear permission to use it, in order to establish a secure perimeter and maintain control. But not only is this going to take some time to get the right people and equipment to the scene, it is also going to take a lot of legal haggling because there are laws that limit the use of US military personnel for domestic law enforcement. And whatever happens, the folks in the military are unfortunately going to have to deal with a Mayor and a Governor who technically are in control but whose performance doesn't seem very impressive so far in this situation, and the know-it-alls in the news media who seem to think this all should have been right there and immediately available just as soon as the storm ended. Remember these reporters were telling us the morning after the storm that the situation in New Orleans was stable (as it was flooding) and the very next day they were screaming that it was taking too long for help to arrive. How much effect did their totally inaccurate reporting have in contributing to the delay? |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
This has been handled so poorly for so many days that if an evacuation train appeared tomorrow, it would be a mob scene. How do 20,000 angry people get on a 600 seat train? Same thought goes for a cruise ship (whose idea was that?) and is demonstrated when a handful of busses show up and 99% of the people wanting to board are left behind.Some of the news video show badly heaved and washed out trackage, others debris and wreckage blocking tracks, and yet others many feight car roofs amid a sea of water. Any guesses how much good that salt water does the bearings?I guess the railroads were among those not taking the warnings seriously and made limited attempts to get equipment to high gorund. Anyone see clips of locos stranded, or did they move those?Bob Kutella |
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| Author: | Heavenrich [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
It shouldn't even make the list of ways to evacuate New Orleans now because once the flood gates get closed, Union Station is cut off from the world.Per Trains News Wires, Amtrak moved 9 engines and 20 cars out before the flood gates were closed.Even the flood gates could be opened, the causeways are ruined and something like 60 miles of track (in all directions?) has to be rebuilt.and that's before you get to the issue of what cars do you use -- and then there are things like how do you handle the crowd control etc etc.Bottom line -- anyone who is serious about the feasibility of using rail to do the evacuation in this situation like and is getting paid to come up with a plan -- is in the wrong job. Bob H |
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| Author: | mxdata [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
I have heard that the New Orleans Public Belt's locomotives all arrived in Houston on Monday morning, having been moved out over the weekend, but consider that to be a "rumor" as it is very difficult to get accurate information right now. |
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| Author: | Finderskeepers [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
This is what rail lines in the area look like at the momenthttp://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/274104 |
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| Author: | DrewA [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
I think the time to use rail for evacuations was before the hurricane hit. |
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| Author: | softwerkslex [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
Water transport is the way out. The French Quarter is dry, which means the ferry docks and Natchez dock on Canal St. are likely also functional. The Natchez is functional, diesel ferries exist downtown, and as a last resort barges could be used. There was a news story this morning of them using a barge to evacuate 300 persons from a Chalmette parish. Unfortunately, instead of taking them to a functioning city, they just deposited them a short distance away "to wait for buses". They have 1,000 people waiting on the pier at the parish, for 3+ days now with no food, water, etc., and 300 people waiting where the barge deposited them.The news story also says there is a ferry in Chalmette, but it is not moving for lack of a crew. The story is on today's (Friday) Morning Edition audio at www.npr.org.Considering the dire situation, a tugboat pushing some flat topped barges could move a lot of people out of the city. The Natchez could make a great emergency hospital for the patients still abandoned at Charity hospital downtown. |
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| Author: | Ed Fritz [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
Amtrack was scheduled to run the first evacuation train at midnight last night with 650 passengers. No info on where they loaded or where they were going though.Ed |
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| Author: | Andrew Cornillie [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Surplus Commuter CarsRe: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans |
One way to carry out a rail evacuation is to do it before hand as has been suggested by some people before hand. Fema could acquire a pool of retired commuter cars that are in somewhat serviceable shape and have them based inland where they could be dispatched to the Gulf, Florida, or in the Eastern Seaboard. There has been a glut of Amtrak compatible commuter cars from NJT and Metra and these might make up an emergency fleet. Likewise too there are a large number of passenger locomotives (Amtrak Genesis 1's, some AMTK F40PH's, F40C's, and NJT GP/F40PH's that may be retired). It might be possible for these to be transferred at the same one dollar rate that other transit agencies have. Crews and operations might be a problem, though it is hardly impossible with careful planning. It may be possible to move people to a shelter close inland so that equipment and be cycled back and fourth from the evacuation area. The catastrophic events in New Orleans were predicted last summer when a few hurricanes were at one time predicted to hit the area. Catalina was by predicted to track towards New Orleans five days before hand and a day before it hit. It is quite feasible to dispatch equipment one area or several areas when such information is at hand. And if such events don't pan out, what is the harm? Equipment is moved back to base or is transferred elsewhere to where the storm actually hits. It seems to me at least to be a fairy efficient and straight forward solution to problem that will become chronic during hurricane season for years to come. It should be noted too that the hurricane season is only just beginning this year.Andrew Cornillie |
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| Author: | mxdata [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rail Equipment Positioning Problems / School Buses |
Having to frequently move equipment by rail, my thoughts are that it would be very difficult to preposition passenger equipment in the limited amount of time that is available prior to the storm hitting, when you have a high enough certainty that they are going to be in the right place for an evacuation. Keep in mind that this storm made more than a 90 degree turn to the right from its southwesterly course after crossing Florida. Three days before it came ashore the National Hurrican Center's track probability was still distributed over a fairly wide area. To cover this type of evacuation with rail equipment, you would almost have to keep equipment stationed in every major city in the coastal south.I am absolutely amazed that the media has not pointed out the incredible contradiction in having a fleet of school buses show up AFTER the storm when the roads are nearly destroyed. Where were these buses BEFORE the storm, when there was supposedly a mandatory evacuation order in place? Why didn't the Mayor and the Governor make use of these vehicles for the mandatory evacuation? These are resources that, if properly utilized before the disaster, could have greatly reduced the need for emergency rescues after the storm. Seems to me there are some very serious questions here about the competence of the local officials. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Surplus Commuter Cars |
Unfortunately (and I mean that sincerely), based on the scenes of the worst of human nature evolving in the "third world" nature that is New Orleans at the moment, I strongly suspect that we would have riots breaking out on said cars/trains because the cars didn't have toilets, water, etc. Those hostile folks would scream "The government is moving us in CATTLE CARS!!"Inasmuch as I actually believe that some aspects of certain proposals being made (such as the reservation of closed military bases for staging areas for future disaster relief planning, etc.) make sense, the devil is always in the details, as they say.As far as I know, there are but two or three such "fleets" theoretically available for such "emergency reserve" use: the fleets of ex-C&NW bilevel gallery cars, the ex-LIRR "breadbox" cars (both sets in the hands of private brokers), and a soon-to-be-retired(?) fleet of CB&Q/BN bilevels on Metra. Do we even have enough cars worth staging anywhere, let alone maintaining in some kind of order? |
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| Author: | Ron Goldfeder [ Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rail Evacuation of New Orleans & Reporting |
On the day after the hurricane things did look good, then the levee broke and everything went immediately downhill. You can't blame reporters for not knowing the levees would be breached the next day. |
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