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Orphan GG-1s
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Author:  bobyar2001 [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Orphan GG-1s
At Cooperstown Jct., NY. Unclear why they ended up here, or their possible future.http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo ... ydate%3A51
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
I believe 4932 is privately owned. her owner put a great deal of time and work into the old girl, but apparently all is not well in Bondo-land. Homes should be found for these wonderful old locomotives. My personal heartache is the Washington Station loco, down in Baltimore.
Author:  Joshua K. Blay [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
Both are privately owned. One might move soon. I think we've discussed them here before. One of these is ex Steamtown Foundation.J
Author:  Chris Salmonson [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
I believe one of these locomotives is destined for the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn MICH.
Author:  Frank Hicks [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
Chris Salmonson wrote:
I believe one of these locomotives is destined for the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn MICH.
AMTK 4932 (ex-PRR 4909) was the one supposedly sold to Henry Ford, but that was over a year ago so I don't know what's happening with the deal.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
The rear loco is Amtrak 4934, ex-PRR 4917.This loco was acquired from the Wilmington & Western RR in the 1980s, after the W&W gave up on preserving a GG1 in its home-shop turf. What makes 4917/4934 unique is that it supposedly was one of only two GG1s that did NOT have its transformers ripped out in the 1980s (the other being 4800 "Old Rivets", the prototype). The mentality that drove this acquisition was simply this: There exists a distinct possibility TO THIS DAY that one could top off the coolant in the 4934's transformers and raise the pantographs, and run it "as is" on the Northeast Corridor. Amtrak 4932 was acquired at the Steamtown Foundation auction supposedly to supply spares for just such a project.The above paragraph is believed to be a reasonable interpretation of the circumstances that led to two GG1's being in Cooperstown Jct. today. No warranty or guarantee is assumed or implied. Your mileage may vary. Past results are not an indication of future performance. Close cover before striking. You may lose some or all of your invested money.
Author:  Ted Miles [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
Folks,Regardless of the condition of the transformers; haven't they (Amtrak) changed the electrical nature of the old Pennsylvania main line, when they extended it to Boston?I have heard at various times that it may be possible to run a GG1 at 600 volts DC without too many changes. Compressor etc.Something like running a 1200 volt motor on 600 volts. Not very much jump, but it will move! Ted Miles
Author:  doowoppie [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
Ted Miles wrote:
Something like running a 1200 volt motor on 600 volts. Not very much jump, but it will move! Ted Miles
Hi Ted,You are right about being able to run motors on a lower voltage but it does get to a point where the return isnt enought to warrent it.As an example I have a fan that normally runs on 240 volts AC and I can run it on 120 Volts AC just fine. The drawback is that if it is running on 240volts ac with 2 amps of current then at 120 volts AC it will be running only at 1 Amp of current, there by my total power is quartered.240x2=480 watts 120x1=120 watts480/120=4or 1/4 the powerSo if you are producing 1500HP with a 1200volt supply you would essentially cut the power to about 375 HP with a 600 volt supply.Though as stated you could modify the transformer and get the rated power out of it by stepping the 600 volts to 1200 volts.Andrew
Author:  Scott Kwiatkowski [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
The NEC still runs on 25 cycle. I had the privledge in my early days of employment with one of the local utilities. I was resposable for one of the motor-gens that supplied power to the NEC. It was a blast. In the mornings we had to shft the frame of the "freq" that's what we called it to reduce the current going out. The Freq was built in 1927 and when the morning rush came we careful to not over load the Freq. Around 9am the load would come down and we would shift the frame back or ajust the voltage to pick up some more load. The 60 cycle motor is a Westinghouse 30,000 hp coneccted to a 3' dia shaft conected to the 25cycle generator which rotated at 300 rpms. We did hourly inspections on the Freq, bearing temps, oil flow, no sparking or arching of the brushs. One could walk from the 60 cycle side to the 25 cycle and feel in your feet the humm go to a rumble. For 8 hours a day I controled the worlds largest ZW transformer Lionel could ever dream of and ran the largest trainset to ever go around a Christmas tree. The freq is still is service cranking out 25cycles at 11,000 volts daily.Scott
Author:  Tom Cornillie [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  PCB contamination
I am really suprised that the potential for lingering PCB contamination hasn't been discussed here. As I recall it was discussed at the ARM conference held in at the RMPA this past October. Tom Cornillie - - - - - Environmental Protection Agency, Region 3 Press Release * For Immediate Release: June 23, 2004 * Pa. Historical and Museum Commission Settle PCB Violations - Railroad Museum to Complete EPA-Approved CleanupBonnie Smith, 215-814-5543PHILADELPHIA – The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has announced that the state commission that runs the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg, Pa., has settled a case involving leaks of polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) fluid from a historic locomotive at the museum.In a consent agreement with EPA, the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission has agreed to pay a $28,836 penalty to settle alleged violations of federal regulations on the storage and disposal of PCBs and PCB-containing equipment. The commission has committed to cleanup and dispose of PCBs and PCB-containing equipment at the museum.PCBs, a probable human carcinogen, were once widely used as a nonflammable coolant for transformers and other electrical equipment. In 1976, Congress enacted the Toxic Substances Control Act, which strictly regulated the manufacture, use and disposal of PCBs. For information on the health effects, regulations, and cleanup of PCBs, visithttp://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pcb/.On March 14, 2002, Pennsylvania officials notified EPA about the discovery of PCB transformers on four locomotives at the museum, and a leak of PCB fluid from one such transformer. Museum officials also informed EPA of PCB-contaminated soil at the museum.In consultation with EPA, the commission developed a plan for the cleanup of the PCB leak, the soil contamination, and the disposal of PCB-containing transformers at the museum. Under this plan, which EPA approved on September 15, 2003, the commission developed specifications for PCB cleanup and transformer disposal, and has remediated the PCB-contaminated soil. Soil and transformer removal and disposal have been completed. The remaining portions of the cleanup are scheduled to be completed by September 2005.As part of the settlement of this matter, the commission has neither admitted nor denied liability for the alleged violations. EPA will continue to work with the Pennsylvania officials until the completion of the cleanup.#http://yosemite.epa.gov/r3/press.nsf/0/6f0ebb12d7403e5b85256ebc006be63c?OpenDocument
Author:  doowoppie [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orphan GG-1s
Scott Kwiatkowski wrote:
The NEC still runs on 25 cycle. I had the privledge in my early days of employment with one of the local utilities. The 60 cycle motor is a Westinghouse 30,000 hp coneccted to a 3' dia shaft conected to the 25cycle generator which rotated at 300 rpms. We did hourly inspections on the Freq, bearing temps, oil flow, no sparking or arching of the brushs. One could walk from the 60 cycle side to the 25 cycle and feel in your feet the humm go to a rumble. For 8 hours a day I controled the worlds largest ZW transformer Lionel could ever dream of and ran the largest trainset to ever go around a Christmas tree. The freq is still is service cranking out 25cycles at 11,000 volts daily.Scott
Hi Scott,Thanks for the great story. I would love to hear more of it. I am sure you have lots of interesting tales about your specific job. If you want to you can contact me off channel via email. My email is doowoppie@adelphia.netAndew
Author:  PJS [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Running GG-1s at 600v.
The idea of running a GG-1 on 600v DC at a museum is indeed intriguing, since the motors themselves will run fine on 600v DC, in fact they will run "better" and cooler on DC than AC. And interestingly the voltage is about right too. The motors were permanently connencted in series pairs (just like for example a PCC car) and the maximum voltage across each pair of motors was something like (if I remember correctly) 850v (after being stepped down by the main transformer). In fact the New Haven has similar 11kV, 25 Hz locomoitves that ran fine on 600v DC to reach Grand Central Station.The issue is the control system. All series-wound motors need to be started and accelerated at a very low voltage, with the voltage increased in steps as the motors speed up. The GG-1 used a transformer with many taps, each tap producing a different voltage. Notching up the controller switched between taps to provide different voltages as the engine accelerated. Transformers do not work on DC. So major changes would be required to replace the tapped transformer control with a typical DC resistance- switched control, just like any streetcar. Essentially the transformer needs to be replaced with resistance grids.There is certainly an issue with current draw at full power. A GG1 had 12 385 horsepower motors. A PCC cars has four motors with a TOTAL of about 385 horsepower. So all other things being equal, the GG1 at 600v would draw at full performance about 12 times what a PCC car draws. Of course it is unlikely that full performance is required -- not many museums are accelerating long trains quickly up to 90 mph!Pete Schmidt
Author:  rcw7585 [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PCB contamination
I actually enjoyed the fact that the discussion wasn't about polychlorinated biphenyls. Oh, well.R. C. Whiteheadp.s. Nice to see you on here, Scott!
Author:  doowoppie [ Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Running GG-1s at 600v.
PJS wrote:
The issue is the control system. All series-wound motors need to be started and accelerated at a very low voltage, with the voltage increased in steps as the motors speed up. The GG-1 used a transformer with many taps, each tap producing a different voltage. Notching up the controller switched between taps to provide different voltages as the engine accelerated. Transformers do not work on DC. So major changes would be required to replace the tapped transformer control with a typical DC resistance- switched control, just like any streetcar. Essentially the transformer needs to be replaced with resistance grids.Pete Schmidt
Hi Pete,The way things have come with semiconductor materials you could actually use diode rectifiers with the transformer and switch the legs of the transformer through the rectifier. A bridge rectifier would be the eaisest to hook up. This would save having to replace the transformer and it would be a bit more compact than using resistive circuitry. Instead of replacing the notching switch you could still use it and just send the output to the bridge rectifier. If you needed to you could use the same setup on each motor if you wanted to.Andrew Martin
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Running GG-1s at 600v.
Somewhere in my photos I have a photograph of one of Amtrak's 7000-hp AEM7 locos being completely refurbished at Wilmington Shops a couple of years ago. This was basically an electrical systems upgrade, designed to keep them running another 20 years or so.The AEM7 in question was basically a denuded box in white primer paint. The employees told me, pointing to a modular unit waiting to be dropped in, "believe it or not, that's the complete electrical guts of the loco right there--all the diodes, rectifiers, etc." They obviously didn't mean the controls or traction motors, but I got the point.I have joked since that you could have shoved it in the toilet compartment of a GG1, but the reality is that it was basically the size of a modestly-generous walk-in closet or refrigerator, perhaps seven feet tall, six by six feet.My guess, based on my walk-throughs in a G, is that one could adapt something that would easily fit about half of the space in the center of a GG1 between the cabs. THe noses, etc. would be stripped clear and would have to be weighted down--perhaps seats to be sold to "slobbering Pennsy foamers"?Of course, all of this disregards the actual enormity of the task of restoring a G to operation, including the major frame and wheel issues.
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