I know of several railcars in the northeast that are true classics. A few are passenger cars,but are truely derilicts. One in particular just down the tracks from my house in Bartlett, NH is a gem with terrible problems.
The car is ex-Maine Central coach (I believe) #935 now owned by the Conway Scenic Railroad. The (truss rod)frame and trucks seem to be in fair condition, but the carbody is in terrible shape. A fire had broke out inside the car and burned about a quarter of it pretty good. Also the roof has caved in at the center of the car and now the center portion of the roof is open to the atmosphere for about fifteen feet. It has been braced up by steel I-beams, and luckily the sidewalls have not caved in or moved.It has been in this condition for more than afew years. There are many other problems, but the car survives. How far gone is too far to think about trying to fix it?

Brian Hebert


Conway Scenic Railroad
btamper@hotmail.com

I think the Strasburg Railroad would be the best authority to consult on this. Not to heap praise upon their shops, but they've done a remarkable job of both rebuilding and rescuing hulks for future work.

My gut response: What is gained from the preservation of that particular car that is not gained by whatever else is out there? Certainly, one can restore anything one throws buckets of money at, but--just as a random example--would the restorer and the rest of rail preservation be better served by rescuing the car you mention, or by restoring and putting under shelter the Sandy River 2-foor-gauge parlor car "Rangeley"? Assume the rebuilding of the car costs $150,000--though you would presumably have a nice car for that money, you might also have 1/2 of the money to get B&M 3713 or Maine Central 519 or 470 operating.

But it IS a free country.

As an aside, Strasburg has apparently passed up as unsalvageable four wooden coaches at the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assn. that have trees growing through them.

LNER4472@gateway.net

Although my personal experience thus far is with steel cars, I am working on a project which could change that. Based on some field research, the answer to your question is: If the metal parts and most of the hardware is intact and restorable, then it is not too late to save the car.

That said, here is my reasoning. I made a recent visit to the Strasburg Railroad while the 5288 sat in Harrisburg for two days. What I learned was that there was at least one car that only had the metal parts intact when the rebuilding started. Others have had new walls while saving the roof (that is a very interesting story) among other major overhauls.

Next door at the RR Museum of PA, a Russell snow plow was undergoing rebuilding with only a few pieces remaining of the original wood. As the restoration progressed, it turned into a rebuild rather than a less involved restoration and paint job. The restoration director there has done magnificent work, akin to the complete reconstructions that occur across the street at the "Stras."

The recent article on B&M 1246 here on RYPN should also serve as inspiration. Some may say that reconstruction is not preserving the fabric of the piece, but, as the sayin' goes, "they ain't building 'em any more." When the cars are gone, the construction techniques (the true aspect of what we seek to preserve, IMO) go with them. At the very least, all of the stuff out there now should be cocooned like both organizations in PA have done. This preserves the option of restoration/rebuilding for future generations, if not for the current ones. Just some thoughts...

Mike Brown
TVRM

> I know of several railcars in the northeast
> that are true classics. A few are passenger
> cars,but are truely derilicts. One in
> particular just down the tracks from my
> house in Bartlett, NH is a gem with terrible
> problems.
> The car is ex-Maine Central coach (I
> believe) #935 now owned by the Conway Scenic
> Railroad. The (truss rod)frame and trucks
> seem to be in fair condition, but the
> carbody is in terrible shape. A fire had
> broke out inside the car and burned about a
> quarter of it pretty good. Also the roof has
> caved in at the center of the car and now
> the center portion of the roof is open to
> the atmosphere for about fifteen feet. It
> has been braced up by steel I-beams, and
> luckily the sidewalls have not caved in or
> moved.It has been in this condition for more
> than afew years. There are many other
> problems, but the car survives. How far gone
> is too far to think about trying to fix it?

> Brian Hebert


Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
newriver400@cs.com

My two sents: I am working on the restoration of two B&M cars at the Illinois Railway Museum, B&M 1090 & 1094, diner and cafe/passenger, respectively. The Strasburg solution, I am told, is to cucoon the car and save it for later restoration, a lesson yet to be learned by most would-be restorers. It is also possible to store the relic under cover, which definitely saved 1094 when the leaking roof was about to grow mushrooms in the car. At the Indiana Railway Museum, tarpapering and plywood sheathing is done in the hope that sufficient volunteers would show up to someday save these cars. I prefer the pole-barn approach, if at all
feasible. The second danger is having too many hulks to restore, which totally destroys the appearance of the so-called museum and reduces its credibility with the public. At IRM there is a barn totally dedicated to restoration of numerous electric cars, most of them championed by a few individuals each who labor on week after week, month after month. The key is a heated and air conditioned adjacent work shop, supplying the basic restoration needs and fellowship for those who appreciate a job well done (and are willing to pitch in when necessary!) Therein is at least one formula for saving those hulks which require so much track and/or barn space.
Ted Anderson, volunteer at IRM
> Although my personal experience thus far is
> with steel cars, I am working on a project
> which could change that. Based on some field
> research, the answer to your question is: If
> the metal parts and most of the hardware is
> intact and restorable, then it is not too
> late to save the car.

> That said, here is my reasoning. I made a
> recent visit to the Strasburg Railroad while
> the 5288 sat in Harrisburg for two days.
> What I learned was that there was at least
> one car that only had the metal parts intact
> when the rebuilding started. Others have had
> new walls while saving the roof (that is a
> very interesting story) among other major
> overhauls.

> Next door at the RR Museum of PA, a Russell
> snow plow was undergoing rebuilding with
> only a few pieces remaining of the original
> wood. As the restoration progressed, it
> turned into a rebuild rather than a less
> involved restoration and paint job. The
> restoration director there has done
> magnificent work, akin to the complete
> reconstructions that occur across the street
> at the "Stras."

> The recent article on B&M 1246 here on
> RYPN should also serve as inspiration. Some
> may say that reconstruction is not
> preserving the fabric of the piece, but, as
> the sayin' goes, "they ain't building
> 'em any more." When the cars are gone,
> the construction techniques (the true aspect
> of what we seek to preserve, IMO) go with
> them. At the very least, all of the stuff
> out there now should be cocooned like both
> organizations in PA have done. This
> preserves the option of
> restoration/rebuilding for future
> generations, if not for the current ones.
> Just some thoughts...

> Mike Brown
> TVRM


tedander@core.com

I just discovered some wooden caboose in VT that are in a similar state (trying to find out who the owner is). When I looked at them I thought that if I win the lottery I could do wonderful things. Untill that happens the reality sets in and I regret passing up the rare steel cab I almost bought last year. At least I could have done something there without the extreme costs of materials and work it would take to even consider rebuilding a wooden car from the ground up even for display, let alone slow and cautious use. I for one wish Conway would get the #501 going. Its sad to see her sit there by the turntable (does that thing work?) when she could be charging up Crawford Notch. At this point I think the best we can hope for is to preserve one good example (if we're lucky) of as many car types and engines as possible. Anything can happen with enough money, but everyone knows the reality.

It is too far gone when any source of good information as to what it was made of and how those components intersected no longer exist.

Those sources can be remains of the car itself or documentation.

Given those sources, any missing or deteriorated fabric can be replicated and replaced.

Whether economically feasable is another story.

Another question is too far gone for what purpose? An operating car must conform to different standards than a static restoration or a conserved artifact in a study collection.

Last year i finished a project on a compromised quality budget restoration which turned about 40% of an original car into a display car for a city museum in California. Now working on a higher quality project - Central Railroad and Banking Co car #2 - which is about 95% complete. Carter Bros. builds cars from some iron and drawings. Many former chicken sheds are now on steel wheels again.

Dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

RH-

The #501 is not owned by the Conway Scenic, it is part of a volunteer effort. I am sure they could use your $$ and muscle power if you are in the area. By "thing" if you meant the turntable, yes it works.

New England is literally littered with wooden cars returning to nature. I just found out about a handful more steel and wood cabooses I had not known about and some milk car rumors remain a mystery to me.

A few folks in northern VT have taken to rescuing hulks to at least keep them safer than they have been. Gems keep turning up. Scott Whitney just fouind a Rutland PS-1 in the woods near Barre. There is still a CV wood milk car rotting away there.

Conway does support volunteers very well. Perhaps some of the local guys posting to this thread would volunteer to tarp the MEC car in question? I bet if you approached them with a team ready to go to work, you'd find little argument.

Just my two cents,

Rob Davis

> I just discovered some wooden caboose in VT
> that are in a similar state (trying to find
> out who the owner is). When I looked at them
> I thought that if I win the lottery I could
> do wonderful things. Untill that happens the
> reality sets in and I regret passing up the
> rare steel cab I almost bought last year. At
> least I could have done something there
> without the extreme costs of materials and
> work it would take to even consider
> rebuilding a wooden car from the ground up
> even for display, let alone slow and
> cautious use. I for one wish Conway would
> get the #501 going. Its sad to see her sit
> there by the turntable (does that thing
> work?) when she could be charging up
> Crawford Notch. At this point I think the
> best we can hope for is to preserve one good
> example (if we're lucky) of as many car
> types and engines as possible. Anything can
> happen with enough money, but everyone knows
> the reality.


inlinebob@aol.com

> How far gone
is too far to think about trying to fix it?

> Brian Hebert

The general consensus seems to be that it's never too far gone if you're dedicated (and rich) enough. For an example of what can be done, and the difficulties involved, I suggest you visit the YV 330 website, and get in contact with Wes Swift and his friends. See what they say.

Randall Hicks


YV 330 Website

> It is too far gone when any source of good
> information as to what it was made of and
> how those components intersected no longer
> exist.

> Those sources can be remains of the car
> itself or documentation.

> Given those sources, any missing or
> deteriorated fabric can be replicated and
> replaced.

> Whether economically feasable is another
> story.

> Another question is too far gone for what
> purpose? An operating car must conform to
> different standards than a static
> restoration or a conserved artifact in a
> study collection.

> Last year i finished a project on a
> compromised quality budget restoration which
> turned about 40% of an original car into a
> display car for a city museum in California.
> Now working on a higher quality project -
> Central Railroad and Banking Co car #2 -
> which is about 95% complete. Carter Bros.
> builds cars from some iron and drawings.
> Many former chicken sheds are now on steel
> wheels again.

> Dave

Hey Dave:

How about telling us what something is when you mention it? For instance, what is #2 (coach?, combine?, pay car? or...?) Thanks!

Les



midlandblb@cs.com

Guys, Take a look at what the Trolley/Interurban museums are doing. They are taking car bodies that you can't believe and turning them back into functional rail cars. It can't be too different from main line wood cars.

I have talked to Glen Gurriea recently and he says that he can build any wood part as long as there is documentation to work with, in the car or in things like the Pullman plans collections.


ted_miles@NPS.gov

Wow, now that's inspiring! Thanks everyone, I'll let you all know if anything develops concerning this car or the others in the area.

Brian Hebert


Conway Scenic Railroad
btamper@hotmail.com

> Guys, Take a look at what the
> Trolley/Interurban museums are doing. They
> are taking car bodies that you can't believe
> and turning them back into functional rail
> cars. It can't be too different from main
> line wood cars.

Thank you, Ted. We ARE miracle workers, aren't we?

> I have talked to Glen Gurriea recently and
> he says that he can build any wood part as
> long as there is documentation to work with,
> in the car or in things like the Pullman
> plans collections.

Seriously, though, you have to remember that Glenn makes his living doing this and works full time. If you are planning to do this with volunteer labor, on the other hand, it's a constant temptation to bite off more than you can chew. I can think of several examples of cars that have been partly or wholly disassembled by well-meaning individuals who were never able to put them back together again. And in many cases the car's construction wasn't documented, or the documentation was lost, and nobody knows for sure what to do. I'd like to see every possible wooden car saved, but you need to count the cost and have a coherent plan before starting.

And just to keep repeating myself, if you can't store a wooden car inside a barn of some sort, in the long run it's hopeless anyhow.

http://irm.org/pictures/600/309cae01.jpg

That sure became complex. A simple answer, it seems to me anyway, would be; It is too far gone when what you visualize as the finished product will require more expended capital and energy than you are willing or able to invest. Mark D.

mnmach@lakes.com

> That sure became complex. A simple answer,
> it seems to me anyway, would be; It is too
> far gone when what you visualize as the
> finished product will require more expended
> capital and energy than you are willing or
> able to invest. Mark D.

Well, it's complex precisely because we can't predict how much money and energy the finished product will take. A wooden car is a huge jigsaw puzzle, many of whose parts are cleverly hiding unforeseen problems. Taking even one piece off is liable to reveal the first of many nasty surprises. And I know because it's happened to me.

This window frame is rotted - I'd better fix it. Oops - the window sill underneath is worse than I thought, I'll have to replace it. Oops - the rail underneath the sill is even worse. Oops - the body posts the rail is connected to are rotted. Lucky thing there are only 68 other body posts, just as bad. And look at the bottom of the body posts - what happened to the side sill? Wasn't it supposed to be down here somewhere? In fact, what's holding this whole mess together other than force of habit?

For a specific example, about ten years ago the Old Threshers in Mount Pleasant, Iowa, pulled their wooden interurban car (CA&E #320) out of service to fix some wall panels. Then the frame behind the panels turned out to need rebuilding, etc. etc. They wound up having to rebuild the car from the frame up, using two full-time carpenters in the process. It took a whole lot more time and money than anyone expected, or would have been willing to commit to. They kept going, I guess, because at any point they were in too deep and had invested too much money and effort to just walk away. The only way out was to keep digging. Fortunately they persevered, and have now finished a complete and beautiful restoration. No one would want to go through this again, however.
(I don't know of a website for the Threshers - can anyone help?)

This probably sounds more discouraging than I intended. Sorry.

Brian,

At the Sumpter Valley in Eastern Oregon, we have anorigional SV coach that most people would have burned. She was built by the Union Pacific in 1883, went to the Sumpter Valley in 1890, and was used until 1919. At that time she was stripped and set on the ground as a crew quarters. When the line closed in 1947 she was cut in half and shipped to the Willamette Valley. Half was used as a chicken coop, and half as a hay barn. In 1990 we got her back and started her restoration. Not a single piece of iron remained on the car, and only a few small pieces of trim and paneling. All her silss and beams needed to be replaced, and so did all her siding and windows. Seats were built and she got her hardware back. $80,000 later we have the only existing Sumpter Valley clerestory coach, and she's used every weekend in the summer. So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that a car is never too far gone, they may look bad, but are definately worth saving, just pull a tarp over them for the time being.

Thanks, Taylor

thrush@smt-net.com