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| The General https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19415 |
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| Author: | bobyar2001 [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | The General |
On exhibit somewhere, no date. From the little boy in the short pants, the photo looks old. Any ideas where/when? http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?j ... NERAL3.jpg |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
In comparison to the "Texas", one has to question the amount of cosmetic authenticity in this version of the old girl. I know she was rebuilt numerous times, but this version, complete with "jelly mold" dome, make me think the locomotive was rebuilt in accordance what somebody thought it should look like. This particular image, with the significant little boy, show the size of such locomotives in an age when little boys wanted to command locomotives and steamboats. Impressive. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
I don't see the injector piping or cam brake applied by L&N in the 1960 rebuilding. The stack is not the one she was found with in the scrap line at Vinings, according to the photo displayed in Kennesaw. Don't know when the stack was retrofitted, or by whom. I'd say probably "depression era" based on the kid's clothing, with a 20 year tolerance going either way. The "keep off" sign suggests a later, more litigious time frame however....... I've never been completely comfortable with my understanding of what changes were made to GENERAL and when, even uncertain as to the original source information used to create the painting with the ankle rail and twin steam domes. NOBODY at the Kennesaw museum had any information from the reconstruction era - the earliest definitive sources they had archived dated from the Vinings scrap line "discovery". Just how much conjecture VS reality is an interesting question for any time frame under consideration prior to 1959. TEXAS is rumored to be in much more original condition, but again, i have no idea to which time frame "original" refers. It is not concieveable to me that the W&A would have modernized and rebuilt GENERAL but not TEXAS over its years of service and technological evolution. dave |
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| Author: | bobyar2001 [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
A bit more here, not too detailed, but interesting: http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainf ... -story.htm |
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| Author: | Dougvv [ Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
Does anyone know what happened to the other two locomotives, the "William R. Smith" and the "Yonah"? Doug |
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| Author: | bobyar2001 [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Very old postcard |
On eBay, with the names of the raiders penned in below: http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/sho ... 63,3818764 |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
Doubtless both scrapped, Yonah being an archaic haystack-boilered anachronism even in the 1860s. Yonah was rumored to have been used as a stationary boiler (source forgotten) after wearing beyond useful repair. There is supposedly a Yonah clone preserved somewhere in Latin America. dave |
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| Author: | gmray [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
Interesting reading there. I noticed that there was no mention of "Kelly's Raiders" who were the folks who stole the General the second time. I also remember in my youth that the Official Seal of the City of Chattanooga had the General on it. It lasted until the General was taken back to Kennesaw. Union Station, the former home of the General, was demolished in the 1970's. Had the General stayed in Chattanooga, I wonder if the L&N might have offered it to TVRM? During the years that the General was on display in Chattanooga, it was always on property that belonged to the State of GA. The W&A RoW through TN all the way to Union Station was owned by the State of GA. There are still tracts of land on which rails once stood in downtown Chattanooga that are still State of GA property. The raiders who were hanged as spies are buried in Chattanooga's National Cemetary. They are arranged in a semi-circle around a monument with a likeness of the General on top of it. That likeness may provide a clue as to what the General looked like in that time period. One final item, there is another monument just north of Ringgold along the W&A (now CSX) line that marks the spot where the General ran out of steam. The monument is reachable by automobile as Ooltewah-Georgetown Road parallels the railroad in this area. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
Another scrap of paper from the clutter - rumored that the boiler of the Wiliam R Smith was "preserved" as an outdoor display in front of the W R Smith company plant in or around Birmingham, AL. A couple years old rumor, i never got to check it out. Maybe brother Yuill can shed some light on it? dave |
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| Author: | Stephen S. Syfrett [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General |
Dave and all: Hope everyone had a great Christmas with family and friends! I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but hope it will clear up a few things for those interested. According to David P. Morgan's article in the July 1962 issue of TRAINS, the GENERAL made several traveling appearances after a rebuild by the NC&StL West Nashville Shops in late 1892. These included Chattanooga (Sept. 1892), Chicago (1893 World's Columbian Exposition), Atlanta (1895 Cotton States and International Exposition), Nashville, TN (1897 Tennessee Centennial Exposition at what is now Centennial Park), Baltimore (1927 The Fair of the Iron Horse celebrating the Centennial Anniversary of the B&O Railroad), New York (1939-1940 World's Fair) and Chicago (1948 Railroad Fair). Perhaps it was at one of the later events where the photo was made. Up until her appearance at the 1927 B&O event, she travelled under her own steam. The trip to Baltimore was the first time the GENERAL was transported on a flatcar. Other than these trips, the GENERAL was on display at Chattanooga Union Station. As far as the appearance, research by the late Wilbur G. Kurtz, an artist and historian who married one of W&A RR Conductor W.A. Fuller's daughters and was able to interview persons living and participating in the Andrew's Raid, indicated the GENERAL appeared as his now-famous painting indicates. The basis for the painting is undoubtedly a pair of images taken by Federal photographer Georga Barnard that are in the National Archives. The well-published images show what is reported to be the GENERAL as she appeared in September 1864 after sustaining severe damage at the head of a munitions train that did not make it out of Atlanta before Sherman's entry. The engine was disabled by members of the Georgia Militia and the munitions train set on fire. The images show a 4-4-0 locomotive with Radley and Hunter stack, the strap iron pilot typical of the W&A RR, ankle rails, 2 steam domes and missing headlight, bell, sand dome and cab. The tender is visibly damaged as well. Col. James G. Bogle has done extensive research of the history of the GENERAL and believes the locomotive was not repaired by the U.S. Military Railroad Services during the brief time it was captive prior to the end of the war. She was operational again by 1867, presumably rebuilt by the W&A Railroad, not by the USMRRS. According to the TRAINS article, the engine was "completely rebuilt" in 1871 by the W&A at which time "she acquired her contemporary appearance (i.e., wooden pilot, single steam dome, no ankle rails)." It is probable that the original 1855 boiler was replaced during this rebuild. At any rate, she was converted from wood to coal at that time, acquiring a diamond stack. It is this appearance that was used for the memorial at the Chattanooga National Cemetery. According to Col. Bogle's article printed in the Fall, 1980 issue of The Landmarker, the publication of the Cobb County (GA) Landmarks Society, the GENERAL was involved in a wreck on June 17, 1882, in which the engine lost its stack, pilot, bell and cab, and the front end of the boiler was "smashed in". If not already changed, this could/would account for the differences between the smokebox front now on the engine and that shown in the Civil War photo. She was repaired and placed back into service. By the time the NC&StL acquired the locomotive with the lease of the W&A from the State of Georgia in December 1890, the GENERAL was out of service and listed as condemned. As referenced above, the NC&StL rebuilt the engine after being discovered stored on the siding in Vinings, GA. At this time the diamond stack was removed and a Radley and Hunter "baloon" stack was re-applied, since it was returned to a wood burner. Her first public appearance after the rebuild in 1892 was at a reunion in Chattanooga of the Army of the Cumberland, beginning on September 13, 1892. As a result of the experience of firing the GENERAL with wood this trip, the GENERAL was again converted to burn coal in October 1892, and, according to Col. Bogle, the current stack was installed, having the appearance of a wood-burner but using coal. As far as I can determine, the stack was not changed when she was converted to No. 1 diesel by the L&N during the rebuild in the last half of 1961. The rebuild was completed on February 7, 1962 and she steamed up for the first time since 1914. Thankfully, she was saved and we have her and the TEXAS to enjoy today. If the Fall 1980 issue of The Landmarker is no longer available through the Southern Museum of Civil War and Locomotive History in Kennesaw, I suspect the same documentation is in Col. Bogle's book published just a few years ago. I hate to admit I have yet to pick up a copy...maybe I'll do that with some of the Christmas booty I received. I don't think there should be any question about certain aspects of the GENERAL's current appearance, and how she got that way. Col. Bogle and Wilbur Kurtz have sufficiently documented it for us. |
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| Author: | Stephen Hussar [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General in 1907 |
from the Library of Congress http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/det/4a10000/4 ... 13862r.jpg |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General in 1907 |
Thanks Stephen, i should have remembered you did a lot of research on it. Were the Kurtz and Bogle source materials archived anywhere available for study? dave |
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| Author: | Stephen S. Syfrett [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General in 1907 |
Dave, The source materials for Col. Bogle's work are well annotated in his published article. I only met him once and did not have the chance to ask him about access to his materials. I know nothing about the materials that Mr. Kurtz may have accumulated leading up to his paintings of both the GENERAL and TEXAS. He passed away before Col. Bogle's article was published in The Landmarker in 1980. Needless to say, I wish I was still in Atlanta so I could do a bit more investigation. For now, however, I believe we should accept Col. Bogle's works as definitive. BTW, he also had an in-depth article on the TEXAS published in The Landmarker. It was published prior to the GENERAL article, in the Winter, 1979-1980 issue. It is not as lengthy as the GENERAL article, but is annotated for the references as well. At that time it was noted in the TEXAS article that Col. Bogle (USA, Retired) had been collecting "information and material relating to The Great Locomotive Chase for some fifty years." Again, I presume all of his work with any subsequent additions, corrections and clarifications are in his book on the GENERAL and TEXAS published a couple of years ago. Sorry I don't have a copy just yet. The 1907 photo of the GENERAL on exhibit in Chattanooga Union Depot is very similar to the lithograph issued by the NC&StL in 1903. It is a slightly different angle, more broadside centered on the cab, whereas the lithograph is at a shallow angle from the front, centered closer to the pilot. |
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| Author: | p51 [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General in 1907 |
There’s a great book about the raid and the locomotives that I highly recommend: The General and the Texas: A Pictorial History of the Andrews Raid, April 12, 1862 By Stan Cohen and James G. Bogle (Missoula, Mont: Pictorial Histories, 1999). |
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| Author: | Stephen S. Syfrett [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The General in 1907 |
Gee, has it really been that long since the book came out??? Time flies when you're having fun. ;>) |
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